Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

Given that you acknowledge the referendum was just an attempt to silence some party rebels, why do you feel the justification to actually leave in more than name only?


Does leaving in some capacity address anyones concerns? Is it worth the cost? Do the people actually will it?

I wonder if any of the remain voters here actually know any leave voters, most of the people I know voted leave and would not be happy and feel betrayed if we are still subject to the EU court and have to accept EU rules. I voted remain and think we should not have had a referendum, the damage has been done. I also think we will be worse off but it I don't think it will be the complete disaster some remainers claim.

I don't think the referendum was called just to silence some party rebels after all all parties supported having a referendum, they just thought they could put the who EU thing to bed and seriously misjudged the feelings of the people.

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

Absolutely spot on.
I’m not sure the average Remainer realises the negative impact for our democracy if the aspirations of Leave voters are not met. I genuinely fear for our country if the referendum result is not carried through with.

But will the aspirations of Leave voters actually be met?
What about the negative impact for our democracy if the result upsets most of the leavers (for being too hard/soft) and most of the remainers? Especially if the economic damage means even more austerity which is will disproportionately hurt the leave voters?


If it had been a binding referendum, or a decent majority, and had some semblance of being successful, I'd agree with you. But I honestly don't think anyone but the extremists would be happy with any brexit deal we can realistically get, in the short, medium or long term.


Plus if you're talking about democracy, at what point do you accept that the public has changed it's mind? We've changed our mind since voting to join 40 years ago, and all the indications we've changed our mind about leaving 2 years ago. So it seems odd to take democracy as being a single date in June 2016, rather than an organic thing that can and will change it's mind.

Herzlos

ukcarper wrote: »

I wonder if any of the remain voters here actually know any leave voters, most of the people I know voted leave and would not be happy and feel betrayed if we are still subject to the EU court and have to accept EU rules. I voted remain and think we should not have had a referendum, the damage has been done. I also think we will be worse off but it I don't think it will be the complete disaster some remainers claim.

I don't think the referendum was called just to silence some party rebels after all all parties supported having a referendum, they just thought they could put the who EU thing to bed and seriously misjudged the feelings of the people.

I know a few. Some were all for the expanding trade but seem to have accepted it's turned into a disaster. Some of the others believe everything in the Daily Mail and vote based on their football team.
I even know a few who seem to just want to leave, with no concern for the costs. As in, quite happy to throw us back to the dark ages as long as they "win" (paraphrasing).


What I don't know, is anyone who had a rational justification for Brexit that hasn't changed their mind - they've all moved onto to wanting EEA as a compromise.


Of those Leavers you know who won't be happy if we still answer to the EU; how many of them would be happy with the 8+% drop in the economy, losing their jobs or access to already underfunded government services, having to apply and pay more to holiday in Europe, etc?


It's all fine and well saying they won't be happy unless we've completely left (for whatever definition of completely leave they have), but I bet most will also complain when the cold hard reality hits.
The only ones that won't be are those that are insulated from it or making money from it. Sadly, I fear most of those that voted to leave will be neither.

bugslet

Tromking wrote: »

Absolutely spot on.
I’m not sure the average Remainer realises the negative impact for our democracy if the aspirations of Leave voters are not met. I genuinely fear for our country if the referendum result is not carried through with.

ukcarper wrote: »

I wonder if any of the remain voters here actually know any leave voters, most of the people I know voted leave and would not be happy and feel betrayed if we are still subject to the EU court and have to accept EU rules. I voted remain and think we should not have had a referendum, the damage has been done. I also think we will be worse off but it I don't think it will be the complete disaster some remainers claim.

I don't think the referendum was called just to silence some party rebels after all all parties supported having a referendum, they just thought they could put the who EU thing to bed and seriously misjudged the feelings of the people.

IN December of 2015 I was Remain, had I been asked - on another forum I spent time defending the EU. I was however a reluctant Remainer, there was a lot I didn't like as well as seeing the positives. However, I gradually moved over to Leave ( no, it wasn't the bus *yawns*), but then became a reluctant Leaver, so had the referendum been won by the Remain camp, I'd have been cool with that. I agree with ukcarper that there should not have been a referendum called in the first place.

However, the deal was that the government respected the vote and delivered that and having voted to Leave, that is what I expect. Whilst Tromking has nothing to fear from me:), I won't be taking to the streets to protest, I would lose what little confidence is left in the/any government and think the only way I could protest, would be to not vote again. And I've voted pretty much every time I have been given the opportunity, even Police Commissioners.

Herzlos

bugslet wrote: »

However, the deal was that the government respected the vote and delivered that and having voted to Leave, that is what I expect.

Yet it wasn't a binding referendum.


Though you do highlight a valid point - your vote would have been different if the referendum took place 6 months earlier. Peoples opinions change, so it's suspect to fix on the will at a certain date when it looks like said will has changed.


I understand that some people will feel let down that they were betrayed, but I think those people will feel let down anyway.


Though I don't have any confidence in the current government to begin with.

StevieJ

Tromking wrote: »

Absolutely spot on.
I’m not sure the average Remainer realises the negative impact for our democracy if the aspirations of Leave voters are not met. I genuinely fear for our country if the referendum result is not carried through with.

So what are the aspirations of leave voters? Here is one who was very prominent in the leave campaign.

Dan Hannan MEP, leading voice of the Brexit campaign, explains to Evan Davis that the future of Britain's relationship with the EU might not see immigrant numbers dramatically reduced, but could see freedom of Labour, 'inside a common market but outside political integration'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCghi2rVaWY

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

Yet it wasn't a binding referendum.


Though you do highlight a valid point - your vote would have been different if the referendum took place 6 months earlier. Peoples opinions change, so it's suspect to fix on the will at a certain date when it looks like said will has changed.


I understand that some people will feel let down that they were betrayed, but I think those people will feel let down anyway.


Though I don't have any confidence in the current government to begin with.

The binding referendum is the weakest of arguments people who voted expected the result to be honoured. If the results was the other way but Parliament was full of brexiters you would rightfully be complaining if they said we are leaving anyway.

bugslet

Herzlos wrote: »

Yet it wasn't a binding referendum.


Though you do highlight a valid point - your vote would have been different if the referendum took place 6 months earlier. Peoples opinions change, so it's suspect to fix on the will at a certain date when it looks like said will has changed.


I understand that some people will feel let down that they were betrayed, but I think those people will feel let down anyway.


Though I don't have any confidence in the current government to begin with.

I'm sure you've heard this said before, the government leaflet said, they would implement the decision. That wasn't part of their campaign to remain, that was the government saying they would follow through on the result - which seems rather pointless, otherwise why bother?

My vote six months earlier would not have been different. In December I was working on a general feeling that it was better, I hadn't given any serious thought to it. Once a referendum was on the cards, then I sat down and thought about it. If the referendum had been a year earlier, then I would have voted Leave because then I would have thought about it, rather than voted on a vague feeling of what would be better.

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

I know a few. Some were all for the expanding trade but seem to have accepted it's turned into a disaster. Some of the others believe everything in the Daily Mail and vote based on their football team.
I even know a few who seem to just want to leave, with no concern for the costs. As in, quite happy to throw us back to the dark ages as long as they "win" (paraphrasing).


What I don't know, is anyone who had a rational justification for Brexit that hasn't changed their mind - they've all moved onto to wanting EEA as a compromise.


Of those Leavers you know who won't be happy if we still answer to the EU; how many of them would be happy with the 8+% drop in the economy, losing their jobs or access to already underfunded government services, having to apply and pay more to holiday in Europe, etc?


It's all fine and well saying they won't be happy unless we've completely left (for whatever definition of completely leave they have), but I bet most will also complain when the cold hard reality hits.
The only ones that won't be are those that are insulated from it or making money from it. Sadly, I fear most of those that voted to leave will be neither.

The people I know voted leave for various reasons some of which I believe were valid some of which were debatable, I made my feelings clear to them and the detrimental effects but they still voted leave and choose not to believe the dome laden predictions put forward by remain and I still believe they don't believe them, in fact I think many predictions are to pessimistic. So I think after we leave their concerns have not been meet they will be very unhappy and disillusioned.

ukcarper

ilovehouses wrote: »

We voted to leave the EU and that's what we're doing.

Whatever anyone adds after 'I feel we must now leave and..' is something they want in addition to leaving the EU.

What do you think will happen if we leave in name only do you think it will end there and all our problems will be solved. I'm no Tory supporter but if they are completely destroyed where do you think that will leave us.