Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

Tromking

ilovehouses wrote: »

Democracy in action. This is how it works.



You want us to leave the EU and [insert something here] and will say absolutely anything to ensure we leave the EU and get the something else too. You genuinely fear for the country if we don't get the UKIP version of brexit? Hysterical.

Circumventing a decision in Parliament to hand over the power to decide on our continued membership of the EU to the British people, is not democracy in action.
We are headed for a constitutional crisis in my view, and the only legitimate viewpoint left standing at the end of all this will be the decision made in June 2016. It has to be honoured and to the satisfaction of Leave voters.

Thrugelmir

ukcarper wrote: »

I think to many people are looking for reasons to justify no accepting the result and fail to accept that any people in this country want to leave EU and the remain campaign which consisted of the majority of politicians failed to change their mind.

When people say leave. Not sure that a lot of people ever felt part of the the EU. In my lifetime travel to Europe has never been an issue. Likewise skilled people working internationally. Imported goods have alway been freely available.

StevieJ

Tromking wrote: »

Circumventing a decision in Parliament to hand over the power to decide on our continued membership of the EU to the British people, is not democracy in action.
We are headed for a constitutional crisis in my view, and the only legitimate viewpoint left standing at the end of all this will be the decision made in June 2016. It has to be honoured and to the satisfaction of Leave voters.

Correct, but what does that mean? Does it mean to the satisfaction of the Daily Mail?

Rinoa

buglawton wrote: »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/07/09/sovereign-brexit-suddenly-possible/
"Britain should reclaim its schedules from the WTO while leaving the door open for a full trade deal that includes services on the basis of mutual recognition, should the EU wish to protect its €80bn (£71bn) surplus."

Credits: Ambrose Evans-Pritchard column in Daily Telegraph 9th July, reg for free account to read the full article.

It succinctly expresses where I think Brexit should have gone.

That's more like what we should have done.

Having to go cap in hand and agree all EU rules just so they can sell us 71Bn more stuff than we sell them is crazy.

Barnier, Tusk and Juncker must be laughing their socks off, giving each other high fives and shouting "Wow, we never thought it would be this easy!"

Thrugelmir

StevieJ wrote: »

Correct, but what does that mean? Does it mean to the satisfaction of the Daily Mail?

Probably as representative of middle England as you'll get..........

ukcarper

Filo25 wrote: »

Is anyone proposing "leaving in name only"?

Theresa May's proposal isn't as close to the EU as say the Norway option, and pretty much any Leaver I heard pre-ref was happy enough to talk up the benefits of the Norway model, it's only when Leave won that it suddenly became a disgraceful sellout of the British people.

This is what happens when you whip up poopulist nonsense, it isn't too prone to listening to reason afterwards.

People were also promised the easiest trade negotiations in history with the EU as part of the Brexit process, how is that going? Nobody on the Leave side seems too worried about letting people down on that front..

Had to laugh at the Telegraph going full foaming at the mouth over May's proposal today, when did the Tory base stop becoming the supporters of business and started being populist nationalists?

Nobody is going to get what they want from the Brexit deal, either find a compromise or if you want to go WTO then put it to a second referendum, I don't see anything undemocratic about that.

I dont recall anyone saying getting a deal would be easy.

Theresa May's deal might have a good chance of satisfying a large number of leave voters but will they satisfy EU and the majority of remain supporting MPs. The problem as I see it is that the majority of MPs want to remain in EU and although they say they accept result of referendum they haven't and are to busy trying to score party points.

Moby

ukcarper wrote: »

True but I feel not respecting the result will cause additional problems will democracy in this country.

Leaving momentum no opposition will be disastrous for this country. I am at heart a bit of a lefty and in my younger days would have voted for Corbyn and momentum's Labour Party but after experiencing many governments and gaining years of experience I realise that their policies although admirable are totally unrealistic and can not be achieved.

Look at the present shower. They are fighting like rats in the sack and it's not because they care about workers rights, the NHS, education etc....they are fighting over an idealogical divide regarding our relationship with the EU.
May and the moderates know brexit will be highly damaging to the economy and thereby the most vulnerable in society and are doing whatever they can to respect the result and keep us as close to the EU as possible at the same time. The taliban totally reject this and will never accept it. They will fight a trench warfare in the coming months over it. That is what sort of Govmt your taxes will be paying towards during however long it takes for this struggle to end!
I saw a tv interview with Rees Mogg.....he's never off the tv these days is he.....he was asked about funding the NHS and whether taxes should be increased? He responded by saying taxes should never be increased in any circumstances and the NHS will benefit from the growth of the economy after brexit.
You talk about Corbyn being unrealistic, you talk about Momentum being a malign influence.......how do you think I see people like Jacob Rees Mogg. At least Corbyn cares about people; he cares about the NHS, (has done for years). He cares about poverty, education, social services, the state of the prisons, transport etc. The people now governing us care little for those things, they are purely focussed on a life or death struggle for the future direction of the tory party in relation to the EU!

Filo25

ukcarper wrote: »

I dont recall anyone saying getting a deal would be easy.

Theresa May's deal might have a good chance of satisfying a large number of leave voters but will they satisfy EU and the majority of remain supporting MPs. The problem as I see it is that the majority of MPs want to remain in EU and although they say they accept result of referendum they haven't and are to busy trying to score party points.

If you didn't hear anyone saying a deal would be easy, you can't have been listening very hard, the endless streams of "they need us more than we need them" were hard to miss.

If May can get a deal that manages to minimise the economic damage I'm relatively fine with it, I certainly wouldn't be up in arms over it, I have no loyalty to the EU as some seem to imagine on here, I just don't fancy the paying an economic price for something I still don't see much of an upside for.

As to comments others have made, the last time I checked we are still a democracy as well by the way so I could care less about which final deal is most popular amongst the 52% who voted Leave, democracy would be finding the deal which was most popular amongst everyone in the country, amazingly the 48% who voted Remain back in 2016 are still citizens of the UK with full voting rights as well.

Filo25

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Promised by who? The political intransigence of Brussels was well forecast.

Liam Fox Bojo, a lot of leave posters on here, David Davis to be fair seemed to think we could do a deal directly with Germany which may have given an early indication he wasn't up to the job he had been given.

As for political intransigence I would say so far the EU have asked us which model of relationship we want with them, EEA, Canada style FTA etc. and they are still waiting for an answer.

It remains the UK that is still looking for highly bespoke deals, where we get the benefits of certain parts of the EU without meeting the obligations associated with it, I'm sure the EU is perfectly capable of intransigence, but they haven't had to be so far as we are still waiting for a realistic offer from the UK side to have a basis to negotiate from.

Ballard

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Promised by who? The political intransigence of Brussels was well forecast.

All of the people who said that there was no way on earth that the German carmakers would allow their government to proceed without a good deal. Liam Fox who said that it would be the easiest deal in history. Everyone who said that they need us more than we need them.