Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

gfplux

Zero_Gravitas wrote: »

Not this again. What is it about brexit supporters that they do not understand how negotiation works?

Once again: if, in a negotiation, you do not need to make concessions to achieve your negotiating objects, then you don’t do so. This is where the EU are at the moment. Just because they are not rolling over and letting us have our cake and eat it doesn’t mean they are not negotiating - they are just better at negotiating than the U.K.

You may not like it, but that’s the reality of the situation. And until we make a proposal to the EU that they believe is worth making a concession for, that’s how it’s going to stay.

The ball has been very firmly in the U.K’s court, and will be interesting to see how TM’s latest proposal is received.

As far as a Brexiters are concerned everything not going their way is somebody fault but not theirs.
It’s either Remainers interfering or the EU wanting to punish.

Grow up remainers, this is what you voted for. The fact you didn’t understand how difficult it would be is only your fault and no one else.

I have some sympathy with the argument that the British Government have been terrible negotiators and that they are to blame for making such a mess of it all.

gfplux

Herzlos wrote: »

All of the non-EU countries trade under some commonish agreement for a less closely coupled trade for relatively smaller numbers of trade.

We're perfectly entitled to chose one of those agreements and potentially try and modify it. We can't, however, cherry pick the bits of the EU we want.

The EU is negotiating with us as required. They aren't obliged to concede any of our demands. With the UK leaving, the EU doesn't need to consider the UKs needs.

Shoe on the other foot; what would you do if you were the EU?

The EU is only looking after the EU. That is its job.

The British Government should try looking after Britain.

gfplux

Thrugelmir wrote: »

There's been hours of discussion with the EU team since. The UK now has to decide what's acceptable and what isn't. Which red lines can be redrawn a little. The EU on certain topics has been intransigent. Time for them to either give a little as well. Unlike a couple divorcing. All parties need to maintain a relationship afterwards. Barnier cannot negotiate on his poltical principles alone.

While both parties will have to maintain some sort of relationship in my opinion after Brexit the EU and Britain will drift slowly further and further apart.

Very sad.

gfplux

Herzlos wrote: »

What has the EU needed to change their stance on yet? They are playing by the book we helped right; we pretty much know how they'll react because we know how the EU works.

And why do remainers keep using the word intransigent? To make them sound intelligent and imply the EU is just being difficult? Because it's not quite accurate.

The EU are hard negotiations, which is why we did so well with them negotiating for us rather than against.

This all just smacks of brexiteers not u understanding how negotiations work.

Well put. The Brexiters are beginning to sound like cry babys.

.string.

Well we're getting to the nitty gritty now, both sides having sized up the position of the other and, ultimately wishing for a deal, what it feels it can get out of the negotiations.
The EU side is approving the negotiations in a certain way (you can't discussed this until you agree this) which in my view should have been scotched at the start. It is clearly stated that the agreement to any deal will be done by majority voting (see Article 50) yet the opinion of Ireland and, looming, Spain, has been allowed to grant those countries vetoes.

The UK Government has been hampered by lack of a sufficient majority from day 1, not helped at all by the last GE, and by the refusal of many Remainders to accept the result of the EU Referendum and Opposition Parties preoccupied with their own self interest. At every turn the Government has been criticised by, effectively, a UK 5th columns.

But the UK can't go back, our cosy relationship with the EU is gone, finished, destroyed. So the best hope for the country is to negotiate as best it can for a new relationship with the EU. Moaning about what it might have been and how bad this or that UK proposal is does not help our country at all.

As I mentioned in a previous post [URL=https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/74493429#Comment_7449342911307[/URL], we are in take it or leave it territory which has clearly been left to a late stage to focus minds.

Zero_Gravitas

.string. wrote: »

It is clearly stated that the agreement to any deal will be done by majority voting (see Article 50).

Not quite. It’s actually qualified majority voting in accordance with Article 238(3)(b):

“(b) By way of derogation from point (a), when the Council does not act on a proposal from the Commission or from the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, the qualified majority shall be defined as at least 72% of the members of the Council representing Member States comprising at least 65% of the population of these States.”

kabayiri

gfplux wrote: »

....
I have some sympathy with the argument that the British Government have been terrible negotiators and that they are to blame for making such a mess of it all.

It's not sympathy required. A lot of things were promised during the referendum campaign, mostly by politicians in power, and people will have an expectation.

The negotiating approach has precisely zero to do with any voter, Remain or Leave.

If the mainstream parties fail to deliver in abundance, then where do you think all those heartland voters turn to?

I still stand by my view that hard right / hard left will see a big resurgence.

Enterprise_1701C

Herzlos wrote: »

What has the EU needed to change their stance on yet? They are playing by the book we helped right; we pretty much know how they'll react because we know how the EU works.

And why do remainers keep using the word intransigent? To make them sound intelligent and imply the EU is just being difficult? Because it's not quite accurate.

The EU are hard negotiations, which is why we did so well with them negotiating for us rather than against.

This all just smacks of brexiteers not u understanding how negotiations work.

The eu are making up the rules as they go. They simply do not want it to look like it will be anything like easy and profitable for any country to leave the eu. As they are making up the rules they could have made up one whereby a leaving country could trade with the eu on leaving on the basis of X tariff but no, they decided to do it this way.

I do not believe for one second that, if we had set out the way we wanted to negotiate, they would have done anything other than stamp their feet and say no.

The fact that the euro and the eu is causing a lot of problems within other countries such as Italy and Portugal, and the eastern European countries, does not help our cause. They want to appear big to them, they do not want it to seem that they will bend in the wind, it is like the german regimes that used to shoot people if they said the wrong thing.

There is no way they will willingly let their cash cow go without trying to wreck us first. After all, we refused to have our economy ruined by the euro, they have to find some way of trying to wreck our country as a parting shot.

Hopefully the way they have acted whilst we are trying to leave will make any other net contributors think twice about joining, and the fact that so many net takers want to join is sure to make the eu more than unsteady on their feet. Hoist by their own petard.

StevieJ

I can see this coming back to haunt the Tory party at some point, if only to remind our animal loving population about Fox Hunting, remember that one Theresa?

MPs have voted to reject a bill that recognises that animals feel pain and emotion.
Affecting the EU Withdrawal Bill, the clause would have enshrined into UK law the recognition that animals feel pain and emotion, an admission currently covered by EU law.
Some 80 percent of animal welfare legislation currently comes from the EU but after March 2019 European law will no longer apply in the UK.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/11/20/mps-vote-that-animals-cant-feel-pain-or-emotion-as-part-of-brexit-bill-7093881/

Filo25

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

The eu are making up the rules as they go. They simply do not want it to look like it will be anything like easy and profitable for any country to leave the eu. As they are making up the rules they could have made up one whereby a leaving country could trade with the eu on leaving on the basis of X tariff but no, they decided to do it this way.

I do not believe for one second that, if we had set out the way we wanted to negotiate, they would have done anything other than stamp their feet and say no.

The fact that the euro and the eu is causing a lot of problems within other countries such as Italy and Portugal, and the eastern European countries, does not help our cause. They want to appear big to them, they do not want it to seem that they will bend in the wind, it is like the german regimes that used to shoot people if they said the wrong thing.

There is no way they will willingly let their cash cow go without trying to wreck us first. After all, we refused to have our economy ruined by the euro, they have to find some way of trying to wreck our country as a parting shot.

Hopefully the way they have acted whilst we are trying to leave will make any other net contributors think twice about joining, and the fact that so many net takers want to join is sure to make the eu more than unsteady on their feet. Hoist by their own petard.

Which existing deal that the EU has with an external country do you want the UK to pursue?

I'm not seeing the EU blocking any of those options so far, instead we just have the UK continually demanding that we deserve a special deal better than the EU has seen fit to give to any other country and then stamping our feet and crying foul when they point out that isn't on the table.

If nothing else it is funny to see how many people think the EU are being really unfair but negotiating with the USA with their current approach to trade will be really straightforward, and will yield a really good deal for the UK