Brexit, the economy and house prices (Part 3)

always_sunny

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Eh?

You clearly just have a chip on your shoulder regarding the UK.

Do you know how political parties in other EU states choose their candidates, ministers and party leaders?

The HoL works as an oversight committee, they have no real power if parliament overrules them. You know this I assume?

The monarchy hasn't used power over the government to change the course of the nation for a while now. Why bring them up? Why?

It seems as though you're just intensely bitter about all of this, I don't understand why you would choose to live here if you hate it so much...

Mostly frustrated with the ongoing bashing towards the EU, I think you and others forget that the EU is 'home' to millions of citizens who are happy to be in the EU, happy to see the EU evolving and move forward.

Don't like it? Fair enough, Brexit and move on because with all this moaning sounds like as someone regretting leaving. Folks like you in the UK are constantly trying to prove a point as if the UK is any better when most of the time it's either worse or the same really.

Are you telling me it is democratic that taxpayers foot the bill of a HoL that as you describe is 'oversight committee, they have no real power if parliament overrules them'? The monarchy, even if they perform a rubber stamp function is a 'body' that it is unelected.

TrickyTree83

BobQ wrote: »

There are many systems of Government that are based on Written Constitutions with eternity clauses that prevent changes to parts of that Constitution. Germany for example has such an eternity clause and amendments by Governments cannot change particular clauses.

But the point is that the EU is not a country it ia supra-national treaty based system. Its processes are designed to enable national Governments (not electorates) to exercise control including by appointed commissioners.

Equally when I vote for my MP I have no exercise over who the elected Government is. My MP has a huge majority so without proportional representation I cannot even influence the Government.


.

A cheap argument without explanation.




Shop messing with my words. I said that it is typical British arrogance to believe that ours is the only truly democratic system of government.

When you join an international group you are bound by the agreed processes it uses. The EU is no different. A vote for an MEP is only designed to elect a representative to debate issues in a forum with defined powers and to support their constituents as they choose.

You may believe that the EU Parliament has too few powers but that is the fault of the national governments for endorsing such a system.

I do think it is fair to say that you do not like the EU's processes and that that was a reason for voting to leave, but we are in no position to lecture others about democracy when our system is as flawed as many of our allies.

I've never said the British system is perfect. Any flaws in our system or that of any other nation does not excuse the lack of accountability in the EU system.

That may well be the fault of national governments, but as of 2016 it was still the method they used and no changes have been forthcoming since to address the consolidation of power in the hands of unelected bureaucrats in the EU.

We hold no power over the EU at the ballot box, we can only advise and recommend via the MEP's.

always_sunny

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I've never said the British system is perfect. Any flaws in our system or that of any other nation does not excuse the lack of accountability in the EU system.

That may well be the fault of national governments, but as of 2016 it was still the method they used and no changes have been forthcoming since to address the consolidation of power in the hands of unelected bureaucrats in the EU.

We hold no power over the EU at the ballot box, we can only advise and recommend via the MEP's.

You seem to expect a perfect system from the EU when the British one is also flawed.
The EU is relatively a young organisation compared to the UK. The system in the EU is designed to work on this way because of the nature of the current EU arrangements. I expect the EU system to change over time and adjust to what EU member states see fit.

[Some] folks here seem on a constant tantrum towards the EU but pay little attention to the efficiency of their own country.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

You guys need to give the 'anti British' /unpatriotic/hate the UK accusations a rest, it reeks of trying to play the man instead of the ball - most of us live in the UK and have a vested interest in the success of this country, regardless of political beliefs or stance on the EU. None of us hate the UK, we just disagree on what the proud and shameful aspects are. Recognising and acknowledging your countrys flaws is healthy, thinking your country is glorious and can do no wrong is dangerous.

You think that describing the UK as: "It doesn't pretend it's some mini superpower run by toffs who want to turn the clock back 100 years." is not anti-British or unpatriotic then?
Perhaps the opening of some eyes may be beneficial.
Since you caused such disruption in PartII that this thread was started though, I am not surprised.

Tromking

always_sunny wrote: »

Mostly frustrated with the ongoing bashing towards the EU, I think you and others forget that the EU is 'home' to millions of citizens who are happy to be in the EU, happy to see the EU evolving and move forward.

Don't like it? Fair enough, Brexit and move on because with all this moaning sounds like as someone regretting leaving. Folks like you in the UK are constantly trying to prove a point as if the UK is any better when most of the time it's either worse or the same really.

Are you telling me it is democratic that taxpayers foot the bill of a HoL that as you describe is 'oversight committee, they have no real power if parliament overrules them'? The monarchy, even if they perform a rubber stamp function is a 'body' that it is unelected.

I voted leave partly because of the obvious democratic deficit that is unfortunately inbuilt in the EU, that said it doesn't mean that the UK cannot modernise its democracy outwith the EU. The Labour Party has ideas re. a federal UK that could gain traction in the next years and I hope they do. I can vote directly for UK reform, yet EU reform will no doubt have to be filtered through the wishes of the Germans, French and umpteen EU institutions before I get a say (if at all!) and if it doesn't suit the long term aims of the EU project then it probably goes nowhere fast. I do get however that some on here are willing to compromise on democracy in order to enjoy the benefits (as they see it) of continued EU membership. That's pragmatism of the most dangerous kind in my view.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

buglawton wrote: »

Todays Brexit headline: "Brexit: UK to be 'educated' about consequences, says Barnier".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41140564

So, finally it''s realised that the EU has an electric fence around it, lest any of the more adventurous sheep nations should decided make a... Brexit.

The psychology of this interesting.

Poll:
Will sinister-sounding threats like this from Barnier and his cohorts:
a) Keep the other 27 from thinking of leaving
or
b) Cause some of them to decide to make a break for it sooner rather then later

I have said in another thread (as have others) that the fear of senior Eurocrats is becoming increasingly obvious and desperate from what we see in media.
I suggest reasons here: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=73072209&postcount=462

Then there is the likes of this:

Mr Davis told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show that the EU was using the limited time period available for negotiations to put pressure on the UK over the divorce payment. Mr Barnier, the EU's chief negotiatior said on Wednesday that "no progress" had been made on the substantial issues, a stance with which Mr Davis disagreed.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-michel-barnier-silly-brexit-negotiations-andrew-marr-a7926766.html

Interestingly Marr himself had this to say:

"Very sadly for us, the EU negotiators are so far very camera-shy, so we can't ask them why they are so worried and so disdainful towards the British."

Video of that without navigating Auntie Beeb's website here: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/849462/Andrew-Marr-EU-Britain-Davis-Barnier-Brexit

setmefree2

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Suggesting that people are stupid is offensive.

It's also been used throughout history - women shouldn't be allowed to vote as they are too stupid, people without property and land shouldn't be able to vote as they are too stupid....

As arguments go it is as old as time.

Thrugelmir

HPC_Ghuol_Hunter wrote: »

Not all people are stupid, however gullible racists are. The vote was only won on a small majority and I have no doubt in my mind that denseness on one side was a majority contributor.

Personally I find such a tone offensive. People don't need to have high IQ's to be decent honest people. Displaying an air of arrogance and impoliteness about others suggests a lack of common decency.

setmefree2

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

It is a simple fact that some people in society have lower levels of intelligence than others.

Disliking that fact does not make it any less true.

WOW.

You'll be advocating castration and spaying soon...

Thrugelmir

BobQ wrote: »

Another indication that Barnier is intent on uniting the Brits against the EU.........

One only has to look at Barniers political views to understand why. Barnier was Vice President of the the European People's Party (EPP) from 2010-2015. Seems as if his political views are interferring with his role as negotiator.

The European People's Party (EPP) is a European political party. A transnational organisation, it is composed of other political parties, not individuals. Founded by primarily Christian democratic parties in 1976, it has since broadened its membership to include liberal-conservative parties and parties with other centre-right political perspectives.

The EPP has been the largest party in the European Parliament since 1999 and in the European Council since 2002. It is also by far the largest party in the current European Commission. The President of the European Council, President of the European Commission and the President of the European Parliament are all from the EPP. Many of the Founding fathers of the European Union were also from parties that later formed the EPP. Outside the EU the party also controls a majority in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. The EPP has alternated with its centre-left rival the Party of European Socialists (PES) as the largest European political party and parliamentary group.

The EPP includes major parties such as the Christian Democratic Union of Germany (CDU), The Republicans of France, Forza Italia of Italy, and the People's Party (PP) of Spain, and it has member parties in all of the EU member states except the United Kingdom.