Claim defence

Lamilad

@Completelyfubar, Did you get the transcript from you court case or do you intend to get it? I have taken an interest in the Roe Lee cases and may be assisting in some of the forthcoming hearings.

A transcript from a successful case would be extremely useful.

completelyfubar

Firstly, sorry I missed your post Lamilad
Yes we have requested a transcript from a recent hearing which went VERY badly for UKCPM.
They sent in a rep that behaved incredibly badly and even shouted at the Judge :eek:
The Judge had dismissed over a dozen of these cases and was getting a bit tired of them it seems, so he really went for the rep and kept firing question after question... until she apparently blew!!!

Question:
There are quite a few that applied for a set-aside and they will need to go through the process again. I have a WS that gets straight to the main defence points and was wondering if we should just use this as the main defence... and even include all the evidence etc.
This will then negate the need for any witness statements and evidence bundles closer to the hearing.
Gladstone's must have 20+ copies of the same winning evidence by now so.... ?

nosferatu1001

A WS is not a defence. A defence is a set of legal arugments, a WS is a set of facts.
So make sure yorue clear what youre sending and why.

completelyfubar

I agree nosferatu1001... I described that incorrectly, sorry
What I should have actually said is my Skeleton argument.

My skeleton argument is a more brief and concise statement that draws in the evidence bundle.
It's also small enough (including bundle) to email.

nosferatu1001

The skeleton is neither a defence nor a ws, so cannto be used in place of either!

completelyfubar

I think you may be misunderstanding me, I am talking about the content not the heading etc.
i.e. My defence had pages and pages of stuff that I never even referenced in my hearing.
It looked impressive but waffled on about every weakness in the claim.

I just used my condensed 'skeleton' version in the hearing because it addressed the main 'winning' point(s) and kept the attention of the Judge.

This is still full of legal arguments etc.

Lamilad

Yes we have requested a transcript from a recent hearing which went VERY badly for UKCPM.
They sent in a rep that behaved incredibly badly and even shouted at the Judge!

Yes I'm aware of the TS that has been requested. I was wondering if you had requested yours as well. 2 transcripts from different judges at the same court coming to the same conclusion would be highly persuasive in future cases at the same court.

I think you may be misunderstanding!

nosferatu1001 has not misunderstood you. What they have said is 100% correct.

Any legal arguments in your SA would have only been a repetition or expansion on those raised in your defence anyway. So, yes, if you made the points better in your SA then use them in future defences.

You are correct to suggest cutting out some of the irrelevant stuff that the judge wasn't interested in. A defence should be sharp and concise. Certainly focus on the main points that won your case and let them take centre stage. Mui is these were no authority to issue tickets and no valid contract.

!I have a WS that gets straight to the main defence points and was wondering if we should just use this as the main defence... and even include all the evidence etc.
This will then negate the need for any witness statements and evidence bundles closer to the hearing.

A defence cannot negate the need for a WS. Their meaning and function within the case is entirely distinct.

Also you do not submit evidence with your defence as that goes to the bulk centre whereas as your WS and evidence must be filed and served.

completelyfubar

Hi Lamilad
No, just the one transcript, should be fun reading unless the Judge removes some of the heated moments.
Lets be honest Lamilad, this one is an open and shut case, they haven't won any hearings that we know of since this started and that's a good 20+ by now. Even when they didn't have the land registry evidence the defendants still won due to the woeful signage.

Also you do not submit evidence with your defence as that goes to the bulk centre whereas as your WS and evidence must be filed and served.

Ah... now that answers my question, thanks
So the DS doesn't get forwarded on to the Courts from Northampton? I thought it did so would then effectively be everything needed right up to and including the hearing.
The reason I assumed this is... The TS defendant (mentioned above) missed the WS admission, they only realised when we pointed it out a few days before the hearing. She then rang up the courts who said "it's OK you can still use your DS although you can't now introduce any new evidence".
If this is the case then you could make your DS an all encompassing collection of everything needed.

Are you local to the Blackburn area then, or are you helping people with their paperwork and set-aside applications?

Coupon-mad

The defence goes from the CCBC onto the local court, no attachments though. Just the Defence.

If you included any, you wasted your time and need to file them with your WS and/or SA.

completelyfubar

Hi Coupon-mad
What if you had it all as a pdf... Just the one..... and it was emailed.
They would have to deliberately cut out pages.

I'm not being argumentative, it's an honest question.
If I can pdf a defence that is 20 pages long then why not a two page summary with 18 pages of evidence?