Land Registry questions

Millsandovis

Hi @Land_Registry

Just after some advice. I’ve made an offer on a property I absolutely love and wish to purchase. The situation is a strange one in the sense that the sellers, I’ve been told by the estate agents, are a ‘retirement company’ that have taken over ownership from an elderly couple to help pay for their care. The property started off at a much higher price and has come down significantly as they try and sell it. 

It’s in quite a rural location in a village in Essex and there hasn’t been many property sales in the area. When I check the property online to check title deeds etc it gives me ‘we cannot show information about this property, this is a new service and not everything can be shown’ or words to that effect. After doing a bit of research, am I right in thinking this is due to a first registration of the property and it is yet to be completed? This would make sense as it first went onto market in June 2023 under this company after previously being owned for 40 years by an elderly couple. This is still under current wait times for first registration I’m led to believe. 

My questions are as follows if this is the case: would the current situation stop a sale? If so, can this be expedited by my conveyancer that would act for me during my own sale and purchase or does it have to be the company’s? I am mindful of all the red tape around dealing with a company and having to chase them.  But they are apparently very eager to sell and get it off their books. 

Hope this all makes sense and would happily send the details of the property over DM if you are allowed to share that information with me but understand if not due to GDPR. 

Land_Registry

It’s a common scenario and yes re first registration that will be subject to delay. As there’s an onward sale they need to request expedition to reduce the wait time. 

Everything then needs to be in order of course re the first registration to enable title to be granted and presumably you/your conveyancer to then exchange/complete 

danthemoneysavingman

Hi, I am a little confused by the online web pages on this so thought Id ask here.

My father passed away and was a "tenant in common" with his partner. He left his half of the house to his 3 children, and we all wanted our names on the deeds.

So far I believe, to file this myself, I need to fill in the form AS1 (Assent), DJP (Death of Joint Proprietor) and we all need provide a separate form ID1.
I assume I would send them all in as a batch.

Is that all the forms, or do I need form AP1 also?

For ID1 verification, I think you need a solicitor/lawyer/conveyancer to sign
   - my brother wonders if you could use a dentist or similar (given the lawyer cost). I have a lawyer friend locally. which helps me but not him. Is there a cheaper way for him to get his ID1 witnessed appropriately?
Also: would they type of application (box 11) be "Assent"?

For DJP: can my personal Grant of Probate form be used as proof of death or must it be the death certificate?

For AS1, must all the signatures be "wet" signatures (i.e. I have to send the form round robin to my siblings) or can a scan of their signature be applied to the PDF and printed off like that?


Really need to know if I'm on the exact right track or way off!
Thanks

Land_Registry

danthemoneysavingman said:

Hi, I am a little confused by the online web pages on this so thought Id ask here.

My father passed away and was a "tenant in common" with his partner. He left his half of the house to his 3 children, and we all wanted our names on the deeds.

So far I believe, to file this myself, I need to fill in the form AS1 (Assent), DJP (Death of Joint Proprietor) and we all need provide a separate form ID1.
I assume I would send them all in as a batch.

Is that all the forms, or do I need form AP1 also?

For ID1 verification, I think you need a solicitor/lawyer/conveyancer to sign
   - my brother wonders if you could use a dentist or similar (given the lawyer cost). I have a lawyer friend locally. which helps me but not him. Is there a cheaper way for him to get his ID1 witnessed appropriately?
Also: would they type of application (box 11) be "Assent"?

For DJP: can my personal Grant of Probate form be used as proof of death or must it be the death certificate?

For AS1, must all the signatures be "wet" signatures (i.e. I have to send the form round robin to my siblings) or can a scan of their signature be applied to the PDF and printed off like that?


Really need to know if I'm on the exact right track or way off!
Thanks

It can be confusing and the TIC aspect often throws people off course 
Where you have joint owners, and one dies, the legal ownership passes to the surviving owner so that IF it’s to be changed (transferred) then it’s for them to transfer. Probate is not required for the property and the deceased’s executor isn’t the one to transfer or assent. 

The TIC relates to their beneficial ownerships and wills for example. 

So IF the property is to be transferred from joint names to the existing owner plus others you need AP1, TR1 and ID1/ID3 as appropriate for all four. You also need to lodge a certified copy of the death certificate 
Form ID3 is an alternative to ID1 - see PG 67 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/evidence-of-identity-conveyancers

danthemoneysavingman

Land_Registry said:

danthemoneysavingman said:

Hi, I am a little confused by the online web pages on this so thought Id ask here.

My father passed away and was a "tenant in common" with his partner. He left his half of the house to his 3 children, and we all wanted our names on the deeds.

So far I believe, to file this myself, I need to fill in the form AS1 (Assent), DJP (Death of Joint Proprietor) and we all need provide a separate form ID1.
I assume I would send them all in as a batch.

Is that all the forms, or do I need form AP1 also?

For ID1 verification, I think you need a solicitor/lawyer/conveyancer to sign
   - my brother wonders if you could use a dentist or similar (given the lawyer cost). I have a lawyer friend locally. which helps me but not him. Is there a cheaper way for him to get his ID1 witnessed appropriately?
Also: would they type of application (box 11) be "Assent"?

For DJP: can my personal Grant of Probate form be used as proof of death or must it be the death certificate?

For AS1, must all the signatures be "wet" signatures (i.e. I have to send the form round robin to my siblings) or can a scan of their signature be applied to the PDF and printed off like that?


Really need to know if I'm on the exact right track or way off!
Thanks

It can be confusing and the TIC aspect often throws people off course 
Where you have joint owners, and one dies, the legal ownership passes to the surviving owner so that IF it’s to be changed (transferred) then it’s for them to transfer. Probate is not required for the property and the deceased’s executor isn’t the one to transfer or assent. 

The TIC relates to their beneficial ownerships and wills for example. 

So IF the property is to be transferred from joint names to the existing owner plus others you need AP1, TR1 and ID1/ID3 as appropriate for all four. You also need to lodge a certified copy of the death certificate 
Form ID3 is an alternative to ID1 - see PG 67 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/evidence-of-identity-conveyancers

Hi, many thanks for the reply.
It reads like you believe my father and partner were joint owners but they were tenants in common. Does this change your statement(s)?
My father passed his part owner as a tenant in common to his 3 children.
If AS1 is still the way forward, would we have to put the existing tenant in common on the form? I thought not as it is an assent of my fathers part ownership.

Would very much appreciate any further clarification you can give.

Regards

Land_Registry

danthemoneysavingman said:

Land_Registry said:

danthemoneysavingman said:

Hi, I am a little confused by the online web pages on this so thought Id ask here.

My father passed away and was a "tenant in common" with his partner. He left his half of the house to his 3 children, and we all wanted our names on the deeds.

So far I believe, to file this myself, I need to fill in the form AS1 (Assent), DJP (Death of Joint Proprietor) and we all need provide a separate form ID1.
I assume I would send them all in as a batch.

Is that all the forms, or do I need form AP1 also?

For ID1 verification, I think you need a solicitor/lawyer/conveyancer to sign
   - my brother wonders if you could use a dentist or similar (given the lawyer cost). I have a lawyer friend locally. which helps me but not him. Is there a cheaper way for him to get his ID1 witnessed appropriately?
Also: would they type of application (box 11) be "Assent"?

For DJP: can my personal Grant of Probate form be used as proof of death or must it be the death certificate?

For AS1, must all the signatures be "wet" signatures (i.e. I have to send the form round robin to my siblings) or can a scan of their signature be applied to the PDF and printed off like that?


Really need to know if I'm on the exact right track or way off!
Thanks

It can be confusing and the TIC aspect often throws people off course 
Where you have joint owners, and one dies, the legal ownership passes to the surviving owner so that IF it’s to be changed (transferred) then it’s for them to transfer. Probate is not required for the property and the deceased’s executor isn’t the one to transfer or assent. 

The TIC relates to their beneficial ownerships and wills for example. 

So IF the property is to be transferred from joint names to the existing owner plus others you need AP1, TR1 and ID1/ID3 as appropriate for all four. You also need to lodge a certified copy of the death certificate 
Form ID3 is an alternative to ID1 - see PG 67 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/evidence-of-identity-conveyancers

Hi, many thanks for the reply.
It reads like you believe my father and partner were joint owners but they were tenants in common. Does this change your statement(s)?
My father passed his part owner as a tenant in common to his 3 children.
If AS1 is still the way forward, would we have to put the existing tenant in common on the form? I thought not as it is an assent of my fathers part ownership.

Would very much appreciate any further clarification you can give.

Regards

If they were registered as joint registered proprietors then they were joint owners. The land register records the joint ownership. 

I suspect you are referring to how the beneficial ownership can be held as joint tenants or TIC. The beneficial ownership is quite separate. 

The easiest way to understand it is the legal ownership is the land plus building. It’s always dealt with as a whole. You can’t split or ‘share’ the legal ownership/title. So when one joint owner dies the legal ownership can only be transferred as a whole by the surviving joint owner. 

The beneficial ownership is really the value of the land plus building. That value, the £s and pence can be split/shared hence you can leave your share to 3 children. When that’s split many people refer to it as TIC. 

So your Father passed his share of the beneficial ownership to his 3 children. So IF that means the legal ownership is to be transferred then his partner would need to transfer the whole legal ownership to themselves plus the 3 of you. You can’t assent or transfer a share. 

And IF the legal ownership is transferred to the 4 and they all have a share of the beneficial ownership, then the TIC remains and the form A restriction, which I assume is on the register, stays put to reflect that split. 

Note - I state ‘IF’ in upper case as there are always options to be considered before the surviving joint owner transfers. We aren’t part of that thought process - we update the land register re the transfer of the whole legal ownership when that’s applied for. 

Please do all seek legal/financial advice before doing anything. Your late Father and partner will hopefully have discussed and understood what impact their wills/shares had but that may not have then been shared with the three of you. 

And if you are still unsure after my explanation then even more of a reason to seek that wider advice. 

danthemoneysavingman

Land_Registry said:

If they were registered as joint registered proprietors then they were joint owners. The land register records the joint ownership....

 

Thanks for this information, I shall give it some much needed consideration! I guess I have no choice than to get legal advice as the whole thing is clear as mud - no doubt designed that way.

We siblings of the deceased prior joint owner simply need it solidly legal. We are only concerned with the beneficial ownership being respected - as relations with the surviving partner are not on good terms. We also don't want the family of the surviving joint owner to be able to sell the house without our involvement or knowledge.

Was simply wondering how we achieve that. If indeed it is possible. I note you say the surviving joint owner must lodge to get our names as joint owners, which will no doubt prove difficult. What if this doesn't happen before her passing, say?

I believe his death must be lodged with HMLR, but what then would happen to our beneficial ownership & the expected split thereof? Perhaps this is outside the purview of HMLR.  Would this (form DJP) also have to be done by the surviving joint owner? I note you say we must all lodge the forms "AP1, TR1 and ID1/3" - does this mean lodging them together?

Truly a triumph of bureaucracy over simplicity!

If you have any more you can offer to clarify, that would be most appreciated. If not, appreciate your info thus far.
Regards!

Land_Registry

danthemoneysavingman said:

Land_Registry said:

If they were registered as joint registered proprietors then they were joint owners. The land register records the joint ownership....

 

Thanks for this information, I shall give it some much needed consideration! I guess I have no choice than to get legal advice as the whole thing is clear as mud - no doubt designed that way.

We siblings of the deceased prior joint owner simply need it solidly legal. We are only concerned with the beneficial ownership being respected - as relations with the surviving partner are not on good terms. We also don't want the family of the surviving joint owner to be able to sell the house without our involvement or knowledge.

Was simply wondering how we achieve that. If indeed it is possible. I note you say the surviving joint owner must lodge to get our names as joint owners, which will no doubt prove difficult. What if this doesn't happen before her passing, say?

I believe his death must be lodged with HMLR, but what then would happen to our beneficial ownership & the expected split thereof? Perhaps this is outside the purview of HMLR.  Would this (form DJP) also have to be done by the surviving joint owner? I note you say we must all lodge the forms "AP1, TR1 and ID1/3" - does this mean lodging them together?

Truly a triumph of bureaucracy over simplicity!

If you have any more you can offer to clarify, that would be most appreciated. If not, appreciate your info thus far.
Regards!

The law is what protects their wills/beneficial shares and your inheritance. If the partner dies then the property forms part of their estate, the executor is then legally obliged to deal with property bearing in mind the respective beneficial ownerships. 

The key, I suspect, is ensuring you all understand what’s happening re the beneficial shares and property. The TIC/form A restriction protects the wills/shares as mentioned but you need to understand what can and could happen next. 

The death is very sadly factual. The register can therefore be updated at any time re that fact. Your beneficial ownership still exists but we don’t register that. We register the legal ownership. 

If the partner agrees to transfer the legal title to the 4 of you then I’ve explained what’s required re AP1, TR1 and verification if identity. And death certificate 
Its not simple and it’s not bureaucracy - the legal title/ownership is simplest. Wills, inheritance and beneficial ownerships are where things are complicated by joint owners. And whilst some might want such a level of detail included on the land register that has yet to happen. 

I can sense and appreciate your frustrations but your father protected his beneficial share/inheritance legally it seems. He had a recorded will and both he and his partner I assume took legal/financial advice when doing so. As such you are protected in law it seems and as with all laws they are based on people not then breaking them. 

I would advise doing two things if your relationship with his partner is not on good terms. 

Use our free Property Alert service to be notified IF a significant application is submitted - won’t give you any special powers but will at least alert you to activity re the property/land register 
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/property-alert
And get legal advice to clear the mud. And then ensure that all 4 of you understand the legal position and what happens next in any given circumstance. You rightly refer to the partner’s death/will but there are other scenarios to consider also. You may also decide that your legal adviser should contact the surviving partner to flag your understanding of the legal position and/or to request more information if the partner’s own understanding differs or anything else impacts 

Millsandovis

Hi @Land_Registry,

I just wanted to see if you were able to confirm (or re-confirm) something. On your title search facility, am I correct in thinking if it says: 

‘No information held for 
ADDRESS’

It means that the property is unregistered and if it says 

‘we cannot show you information for 
ADDRESS 
This is a new service etc’ 
 
then it means that a first registration is under way but stuck in the backlog waiting to be completed or expedited? 

The property also doesn’t allow for an alert to be set up on your property alert service. 

Would it be possible to get details about a specific property’s status if I was to get in touch with a memo of sale or is that info only available to the conveyancers? Thanks in advance! 

HeyAnon123

Hi @Land_Registry

Would freehold with estate rent charge be specifically stated on the land registry of a property, or could it be named as freehold with rent charge?

I am currently buying a house that says it is freehold rent charge, but have been advised to ask sellers to get an estate rent charge insurance indemnity policy to satisfy lenders. This has left me confused as to which type of rent charge the property has.

Many thanks