Land Registry questions

Land_Registry

whatsthatnoise said:

@ land registry....

Are you able to provide any indication on how long a first registration may take on a property that the deeds for have been lost / destroyed?

We have a property that has been in family ownership from when it was built back in the late 60's. However, on the death of the last person living at this property (very elderly parent), it has transpired that the deeds were held by a solicitor many years ago who themselves have not been trading for many years. All searches for information from the various firms that had any links to this solicitor yield nothing.

We have sent an application to Land registry with all relevant land registry forms. Along with these, we have also submitted as much by the way of paperwork that we have, showing letters / documents from original planning application, grant of planning permission, various letters from solicitors dealing with family affairs (including some showing they held the deeds), old and more recent council tax bills and so on.

How long does this typically take to be resolved? We are looking to rent the property, but of course, until we can "evidence" ownership, we are unable to register the property to be able to do anything with it.

Any advice would be welcome.

The wait time is several months before it’s processed. If there’s a linked/dependent transaction then you should apply for it to be expedited 
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/request-an-expedite

whatsthatnoise

Can I ask what does "several" typically mean?

Are we looking at three months, eight months, more.?

Hebblethwaite

I'm having issues with my solicitors receiving a draft contract and it turns out there is a problem with the leasehold registration. I tried to ask my solicitor to explain but she has just sent me a completely garbled mess with no punctuation (and has probably lost me as a future client in the process, as all her recent correspondence with me has been pretty unprofessional). I'm hoping you may be able to actually explain what may be happening in plain English!

I am buying a house built in the 1950s. It was originally sold as leasehold and was bought as a new-build by my vendor and her husband (who died last year). I have seen the land registry title register and the title plan, and the original sale seems to have been to them as a couple shortly before marriage (they had different surnames). 

The freehold was then purchased (apparently by the husband alone) in the 1970s.

The vendor's conveyancers are now saying that "...the leasehold title appears to be unregistered and we are awaiting receipt of the title deeds to allow us to prepare the draft contract..."

My solicitor has just said that the leasehold title comes "before" the freehold and "when there are both titles this is the more valuable title as this gives the right to live in the property".

Does this just mean that there is a theoretical risk that there is someone out there who owns a lease with 850 years left on it, so I could be left owning the freehold but not actually able to live in the house or sell it if that person suddenly stakes a claim?

How would this have come about? (The missing title I mean, I'm pretty sure my vendor isn't squatting!) And how painful is it likely to be to resolve? I am already looking at a fairly distant completion date (my vendor is buying a new build) and if this is going to be a disaster, I would rather know now and start looking elsewhere than keep on hoping that this will all go through okay. I really like this house and I would be gutted to have to walk away.

Land_Registry

whatsthatnoise said:

Can I ask what does "several" typically mean?

Are we looking at three months, eight months, more.?

Wait times are 9+ months 

Land_Registry

Hebblethwaite said:

I am buying a house built in the 1950s. It was originally sold as leasehold and was bought as a new-build by my vendor and her husband (who died last year). I have seen the land registry title register and the title plan, and the original sale seems to have been to them as a couple shortly before marriage (they had different surnames). 

The freehold was then purchased (apparently by the husband alone) in the 1970s.

The vendor's conveyancers are now saying that "...the leasehold title appears to be unregistered and we are awaiting receipt of the title deeds to allow us to prepare the draft contract..."

My solicitor has just said that the leasehold title comes "before" the freehold and "when there are both titles this is the more valuable title as this gives the right to live in the property".

Does this just mean that there is a theoretical risk that there is someone out there who owns a lease with 850 years left on it, so I could be left owning the freehold but not actually able to live in the house or sell it if that person suddenly stakes a claim?

How would this have come about? (The missing title I mean, I'm pretty sure my vendor isn't squatting!) And how painful is it likely to be to resolve? I am already looking at a fairly distant completion date (my vendor is buying a new build) and if this is going to be a disaster, I would rather know now and start looking elsewhere than keep on hoping that this will all go through okay. I really like this house and I would be gutted to have to walk away.

If you’ve got a freehold and a leasehold then the value is always in the lease as the tenant then enjoys what the lease grants. 

I’m assuming, although not entirely clear, that the freehold is registered from when he bought it and the register refers to a noted lease, namely the one granted and sold in the 50s. 

I don’t follow the theoretical aspect as you said they bought that jointly and the freehold was bought in his sole name. 

So you know she can sell you the freehold but you then have to deal with the noted lease. 

Have I understood correctly? If I have then the ‘title deeds’ for the lease are essentially the lease so hopefully that will solve things for you as presumably they can determine the lease and cancel it. 

If that’s not correct then please clarify and share title number 

george4064

I live in a flat which is one of three in a converted terraced house. I am in process of selling that flat (flat 3) to another individual.

For clarity, lets say flat 1 is owned by person A, flat 2 is owned by person B and flat 3 is owned by me.

The property is share of freehold, is held in trust in equal shares between person A/B/myself, and there is no management company in place.

On 30th June 2021, flat 2 changed ownership (purchased by Person and as part of the process person A and person C recently confirmed their identities with HM Land Registry. Person A via an ID1 form and Person C via an ID3 form.

More recently, flat 3 is shortly to change hands (i.e. I am selling flat 3). Does Person A need to do another ID1 form? I understand person B would need to do a ID1 form anyway (or ID3, or ID1 Section A + ID5 form).

Just trying to find the most efficient route to getting person A and B verified so that they can both be verified for when the signed TR1 form to transfer the 1/3rd ownership from myself to the purchaser of flat 3 is lodged with HM Land Registry.

Second question; since a TR1 form was recently lodged with HM Land Registry following the recent transfer of ownership of Flat 2. Will that cause any delay if a subsequent TR1 form was lodged for the transfer of ownership of flat 3 (effectively the name of the property deeds would be changing again)?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Land_Registry

george4064 said:

I live in a flat which is one of three in a converted terraced house. I am in process of selling that flat (flat 3) to another individual.I

For clarity, lets say flat 1 is owned by person A, flat 2 is owned by person B and flat 3 is owned by me.

The property is share of freehold, is held in trust in equal shares between person A/B/myself, and there is no management company in place.

On 30th June 2021, flat 2 changed ownership (purchased by Person and as part of the process person A and person C recently confirmed their identities with HM Land Registry. Person A via an ID1 form and Person C via an ID3 form.

More recently, flat 3 is shortly to change hands (i.e. I am selling flat 3). Does Person A need to do another ID1 form? I understand person B would need to do a ID1 form anyway (or ID3, or ID1 Section A + ID5 form).

Just trying to find the most efficient route to getting person A and B verified so that they can both be verified for when the signed TR1 form to transfer the 1/3rd ownership from myself to the purchaser of flat 3 is lodged with HM Land Registry.

Second question; since a TR1 form was recently lodged with HM Land Registry following the recent transfer of ownership of Flat 2. Will that cause any delay if a subsequent TR1 form was lodged for the transfer of ownership of flat 3 (effectively the name of the property deeds would be changing again)?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

You’d need separate identity verification for all 3 again as separate applications lodged at different times. 

Lodging a second Transfer application is fine and doesn’t delay the registrations. They are lodged in order and the second transfer will be by the ‘new transferees’ as named in the first transfer 

Hebblethwaite

Land_Registry said:

Hebblethwaite said:

I am buying a house built in the 1950s. It was originally sold as leasehold and was bought as a new-build by my vendor and her husband (who died last year). I have seen the land registry title register and the title plan, and the original sale seems to have been to them as a couple shortly before marriage (they had different surnames). 

The freehold was then purchased (apparently by the husband alone) in the 1970s.

The vendor's conveyancers are now saying that "...the leasehold title appears to be unregistered and we are awaiting receipt of the title deeds to allow us to prepare the draft contract..."

My solicitor has just said that the leasehold title comes "before" the freehold and "when there are both titles this is the more valuable title as this gives the right to live in the property".

Does this just mean that there is a theoretical risk that there is someone out there who owns a lease with 850 years left on it, so I could be left owning the freehold but not actually able to live in the house or sell it if that person suddenly stakes a claim?

How would this have come about? (The missing title I mean, I'm pretty sure my vendor isn't squatting!) And how painful is it likely to be to resolve? I am already looking at a fairly distant completion date (my vendor is buying a new build) and if this is going to be a disaster, I would rather know now and start looking elsewhere than keep on hoping that this will all go through okay. I really like this house and I would be gutted to have to walk away.

If you’ve got a freehold and a leasehold then the value is always in the lease as the tenant then enjoys what the lease grants. 

I’m assuming, although not entirely clear, that the freehold is registered from when he bought it and the register refers to a noted lease, namely the one granted and sold in the 50s. 

I don’t follow the theoretical aspect as you said they bought that jointly and the freehold was bought in his sole name. 

So you know she can sell you the freehold but you then have to deal with the noted lease. 

Have I understood correctly? If I have then the ‘title deeds’ for the lease are essentially the lease so hopefully that will solve things for you as presumably they can determine the lease and cancel it. 

If that’s not correct then please clarify and share title number 

Thank you. This is helpful! I re-read the title register once I got home from work. It states the provisions associated with the conveyance of the freehold in the 1970s (e.g. maintaining the party wall), then who holds the title absolute (the deceased husband), and then describes the "charges" as being a lease dated from the original purchase of the property to the deceased husband and a woman I believe to be my vendor under her maiden name. Does that mean that there must be a registered leasehold title after all?

The title number is SYK97045

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer.

Land_Registry

Hebblethwaite said:

Thank you. This is helpful! I re-read the title register once I got home from work. It states the provisions associated with the conveyance of the freehold in the 1970s (e.g. maintaining the party wall), then who holds the title absolute (the deceased husband), and then describes the "charges" as being a lease dated from the original purchase of the property to the deceased husband and a woman I believe to be my vendor under her maiden name. Does that mean that there must be a registered leasehold title after all?

The title number is SYK97045

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer.

So you have a freehold title registered in the sole name of a now deceased individual
The register refers to a noted (unregistered) lease from 1957. That lease was granted to two people, one with the same name as the registered freeholder and a second person who is it seems his widow. 

There are two key registration points to consider. The first is the freehold title so the seller needs to have obtained probate for his estate as the freehold title is part of his estate. 

The second is proving that the noted lease is still owned by them both albeit if so now solely the named surviving owner’s. 

An application can be made to cancel the noted lease or she could seek to register it first and then apply to merge it (determine it) back into the freehold. 

So ‘the risk’ is twofold re probate needed and evidence that they/she still own the lease. Neither should be that great but your conveyancer won’t know that for sure until they provide the supporting evidence. She may decide that the seller needs to sort things first before you complete.

Hebblethwaite

Thank you very much. You are so much more helpful than my solicitor! I believe probate has already been obtained (but isn't yet reflected on the land registry) - obviously this does still need to be proven.

If probate has been obtained, how long might it take to cancel or register the lease? I'm being told that the draft contract can't be drawn up until the lease is sorted, so everything is stalled until this is done. We are already looking at a completion date of October or later (the offer having been accepted in May) so it would be helpful to know if I am actually looking at many months more.

Thanks again.