Land Registry questions

Land_Registry

meer53 said:

Hi. Wondered if anyone can clarify for me which forms I need to be completing to register a piece of land under Adverse Possession ? Long story short, bought house in 1987, started using land as garden in approx. 1993, land completely enclosed with fence and hedge. We have been unable to find out who originally owned the piece of land.  I have evidence that we have used the land as garden since then. I called the Land Registry and have downloaded forms FR1 and ST1 but have been told by someone that there is a simpler way of doing this ? Is there anyone who can confirm this for me please ? 

If you are looking to register your claim then our Practice Guides 4 and 5 explain what’s required 
I’m guessing the land is unregistered so PG 5 is the one you want 

Land_Registry

darkwarrior said:

Hi @LandRegistry
Per this thread I started here -https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6167891/find-out-who-owns-a-driveway/p1?new=1

Can you please advise me on how I would find the owner of a drive way where it does not appear to be present on deeds?

This is the area I am looking at and this is my original post. I do not know if adverse possession applies as it has been overgrown for decades by our plans and then I have cleared it up and maintained it. It was not mentioned on a recent house listing for the property I was told it belonged to and is not on deeds for the nearest houses.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5619962,-2.1122329,3a,75y,221.59h,82.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBIgQ169wekAw3160iWpUwg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Is there some trick I'm missing that could help me out here?

Thanks in advance.

I assume you’ve checked and confirmed that it’s unregistered so there’s no central record of who the owner is. If so then trying to identify the legal owner will come down to your own local detective work and the actual owner then confirming. 

If you are thinking of trying to claim it then our PGs 4 and 5 explain how to apply to register but it’s legal advice you really need. You need to satisfy the legal requirements before the registration ones 

Jojo59

Hi @landRegistry
I've inherited a property from my late aunt, but there are no deeds to the house. I've checked with the old family solicitor and my aunt took then away, but they're not be found. (It was a family house for over 90 years) I've contacted the land registry but have been informed that it can't be registered officially for 15 years because of the missing deeds and that monies may have be lend against the property . As I've just returned back to the UK after being abroad for 30 years and my Aunt was taken into care for approximately 10 years and also has outstanding debts, I do not know what to do. I cant pay off the debts without selling the house  Would it be possible for my aunts Estate to change from a freehold to a leasehold, this way the house could possibly be sold.  Or can I contest the decision?

Land_Registry

Jojo59 said:

Hi @landRegistry
I've inherited a property from my late aunt, but there are no deeds to the house. I've checked with the old family solicitor and my aunt took then away, but they're not be found. (It was a family house for over 90 years) I've contacted the land registry but have been informed that it can't be registered officially for 15 years because of the missing deeds and that monies may have be lend against the property . As I've just returned back to the UK after being abroad for 30 years and my Aunt was taken into care for approximately 10 years and also has outstanding debts, I do not know what to do. I cant pay off the debts without selling the house  Would it be possible for my aunts Estate to change from a freehold to a leasehold, this way the house could possibly be sold.  Or can I contest the decision?

I’m unaware of the 15 year requirement you refer to with regards properties in England and Wales. Have a read of our Practice Guide 2 and get some legal advice as to how to prove who the legal owner was and how, if possible, you can demonstrate that you are now the legal owner and able to be registered as such

You can’t create a leasehold tenure as you don’t own the freehold one.

MrsBNow

Hi @Land_Registry, can you tell me the current timescales for an RX4 form to be processed. We are waiting to exchange and this was submitted yesterday to be processed.
Thank you

Land_Registry

MrsBNow said:

Hi @Land_Registry, can you tell me the current timescales for an RX4 form to be processed. We are waiting to exchange and this was submitted yesterday to be processed.
Thank you

The estimated wait time from receipt to consideration is around 4/5 weeks currently. Everything then hinges on it being in order and if wider checks, such as contacting the restrictioner, are required. If checks are needed then that can add a further 3/4 weeks. 

If there’s an urgency involved then the initial wait time, not the wider checks, can be shortened by requesting expedition as per our online guidance 

Jojo59

Land_Registry said:

Jojo59 said:

Hi @landRegistry
I've inherited a property from my late aunt, but there are no deeds to the house. I've checked with the old family solicitor and my aunt took then away, but they're not be found. (It was a family house for over 90 years) I've contacted the land registry but have been informed that it can't be registered officially for 15 years because of the missing deeds and that monies may have be lend against the property . As I've just returned back to the UK after being abroad for 30 years and my Aunt was taken into care for approximately 10 years and also has outstanding debts, I do not know what to do. I cant pay off the debts without selling the house  Would it be possible for my aunts Estate to change from a freehold to a leasehold, this way the house could possibly be sold.  Or can I contest the decision?

I’m unaware of the 15 year requirement you refer to with regards properties in England and Wales. Have a read of our Practice Guide 2 and get some legal advice as to how to prove who the legal owner was and how, if possible, you can demonstrate that you are now the legal owner and able to be registered as such

You can’t create a leasehold tenure as you don’t own the freehold one.

Thank you, apologises it was 12 years not 15. 
It was the solicitor who completed the forms. I arrived back to the UK to find I only had a possessory title. The solicitor didn't inform me of that. As such there is no proof, other a letter from the council to say she owed the property before she went into care.  

Land_Registry

Jojo59 said:

Land_Registry said:

Thank you, apologises it was 12 years not 15. 
It was the solicitor who completed the forms. I arrived back to the UK to find I only had a possessory title. The solicitor didn't inform me of that. As such there is no proof, other a letter from the council to say she owed the property before she went into care.  

Understood but I don’t quite follow your questioning if you have Possessory title. 

If you have then you have proof of ownership. If you are trying to prove that she owned it then you are only going to have the ‘facts’ as you know them as you said it was passed on through the family.  If it was then there won’t have been a legal deed to confirm the change of ownership anyway. 

Jojo59

Land_Registry said:

Jojo59 said:

Land_Registry said:

Thank you, apologises it was 12 years not 15. 
It was the solicitor who completed the forms. I arrived back to the UK to find I only had a possessory title. The solicitor didn't inform me of that. As such there is no proof, other a letter from the council to say she owed the property before she went into care.  

Understood but I don’t quite follow your questioning if you have Possessory title. 

If you have then you have proof of ownership. If you are trying to prove that she owned it then you are only going to have the ‘facts’ as you know them as you said it was passed on through the family.  If it was then there won’t have been a legal deed to confirm the change of ownership anyway. 

Last question - promise  
It just means I wont be able to sell the house for 12 years with the Possessory title. I've had cancer and I'm in remission. I'm just trying to get all my ducks in a row in case the inevitable happens earlier.. So basically as I read it, if it was passed down in the family and  I have no legal documents  I can't really do anything other than keep my fingers crossed for 12 years? 

Land_Registry

Jojo59 said:

Last question - promise  
It just means I wont be able to sell the house for 12 years with the Possessory title. I've had cancer and I'm in remission. I'm just trying to get all my ducks in a row in case the inevitable happens earlier.. So basically as I read it, if it was passed down in the family and  I have no legal documents  I can't really do anything other than keep my fingers crossed for 12 years? 

Ok but I think you are misunderstanding the value of a possessory title. 

As things stood you had no title - that’s no good at all and selling would be nigh on impossible as you couldn’t prove ownership. 

You had no title or deeds but you’ve now got a possessory title. So you do have proof of ownership and a set of circumstances and facts you. You can sell a possessory title and it is your legal document and proof of ownership. 

In 12 years time you or indeed your buyer could apply to upgrade to an absolute title. But you don’t cross your fingers for 12 years. 

Speak to your conveyancer and ask about indemnity insurance. If a buyer has doubts about the possessory title then they may ask for indemnity insurance against the risk that someone comes along and proves they were in fact the legal owner and it’s they who should have title. 

Based on what your solicitor must have provided to get possessory title that risk should be smaller than you appear to think, providing it was truthful. We’ve accepted it and given you a title where none existed. The cost of such insurance can be quite small, a few hundred pounds but you may not need it. 

So in my experience there’s no finger crossing as you have your proof of ownership. However your solicitor is the one to rely on here as they’ll have more experience as mine is based solely on similar enquiries plus the fact that possessory titles are sold and indeed secured against by lenders every day