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Land Registry questions

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  • This is such a great post for information. Mr Land Registry, I have a question I hope you can help with.

    We own a property and we have a right to use land outside the property and some gardens to the side of the property. But ownership is not allocated to anyone. From checking the history of the site, the entire site was once owned by one person, but he sold off the properties (8 in total which all have rights to use the gardens). In recent years the area has fallen in to decline and we want to maintain it and bring it back to a useable level but 3 of the neighbours are what's the word, "disruptive" and saying as it is not our land we are not allowed to touch it.
    Deeds are vague in regards to maintenance it only mentions usage.
    I have done my searching for the original land owner, and he died and the will/probate made his son executor, his son died and left his 3 children as executors on the will/probate, I have made contact with the 3 sons all of which have no idea about the land, which is expected really. Are the 3 sons in a position to sell the remaining land to ourselves?

    thanks!
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 6,143 Organisation Representative
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 2 August 2020 at 5:44PM
    This is such a great post for information. Mr Land Registry, I have a question I hope you can help with.

    We own a property and we have a right to use land outside the property and some gardens to the side of the property. But ownership is not allocated to anyone. From checking the history of the site, the entire site was once owned by one person, but he sold off the properties (8 in total which all have rights to use the gardens). In recent years the area has fallen in to decline and we want to maintain it and bring it back to a useable level but 3 of the neighbours are what's the word, "disruptive" and saying as it is not our land we are not allowed to touch it.
    Deeds are vague in regards to maintenance it only mentions usage.
    I have done my searching for the original land owner, and he died and the will/probate made his son executor, his son died and left his 3 children as executors on the will/probate, I have made contact with the 3 sons all of which have no idea about the land, which is expected really. Are the 3 sons in a position to sell the remaining land to ourselves?

    thanks!
    Yes if they can prove that they are the legal owners or that it’s part of the grandfather’s estate and they have the legal authority to deal with it 
    I assume by ‘ownership is not allocated’ you mean it is unregistered so any proof will rely on the unregistered deeds. So a few things to consider here. 
    If the deeds stopped at the original landowner then the legal ownership remains part of his estate. 
    Legal ownership did not pass to the son unless he transferred it as the executor to himself as the beneficiary. 
    If that’s the case then the children need to show a chain of representation re probate for grandfather and probate for the father. 
    They also have to prove the grandfather’s legal ownership of course via the original deeds/docs or via the guidance in our Practice Guide 2
    So plenty to consider and not least the balance of ownership against the rights others enjoy over the land. That may dictate to what lengths you go to re acquiring the land of course. 
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • This is such a great post for information. Mr Land Registry, I have a question I hope you can help with.

    We own a property and we have a right to use land outside the property and some gardens to the side of the property. But ownership is not allocated to anyone. From checking the history of the site, the entire site was once owned by one person, but he sold off the properties (8 in total which all have rights to use the gardens). In recent years the area has fallen in to decline and we want to maintain it and bring it back to a useable level but 3 of the neighbours are what's the word, "disruptive" and saying as it is not our land we are not allowed to touch it.
    Deeds are vague in regards to maintenance it only mentions usage.
    I have done my searching for the original land owner, and he died and the will/probate made his son executor, his son died and left his 3 children as executors on the will/probate, I have made contact with the 3 sons all of which have no idea about the land, which is expected really. Are the 3 sons in a position to sell the remaining land to ourselves?

    thanks!
    Yes if they can prove that they are the legal owners or that it’s part of the grandfather’s estate and they have the legal authority to deal with it 
    I assume by ‘ownership is not allocated’ you mean it is unregistered so any proof will rely on the unregistered deeds. So a few things to consider here. 
    If the deeds stopped at the original landowner then the legal ownership remains part of his estate. 
    Legal ownership did not pass to the son unless he transferred it as the executor to himself as the beneficiary. 
    If that’s the case then the children need to show a chain of representation re probate for grandfather and probate for the father. 
    They also have to prove the grandfather’s legal ownership of course via the original deeds/docs or via the guidance in our Practice Guide 2
    So plenty to consider and not least the balance of ownership against the rights others enjoy over the land. That may dictate to what lengths you go to re acquiring the land of course. 


    thank you for the reply, as the houses were sold around 1910 in those days the land was just enjoyed by all and ownership was not that important a deal, it is only due to the problems now that we feel it is worth trying to buy the land. Any original deeds are long gone, I have accessed the copies from the archive centre, and made sure the land has never been sold off.
    yes the deed stopped at the original landowner, the land was not outlined in the will/probate specifically if that is what you mean? thanks for the link I will have a good read
  • Sally_Forth
    Sally_Forth Posts: 43 Forumite
    10 Posts Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited 2 August 2020 at 9:27PM
    GDB2222 said:
    The Charges Register says (I have altered the details):

    1 and 2 (These deal with covenants from many years ago.)
    3     (01.01.2018) REGISTERED CHARGE dated 1 December 2017
    4     (01.01.2018) Proprietor:  [Name of lender, company number, and address]
    5     (01.02.2020) Charge dated 1 February 2020 in favour of (Name of individual, but no address)
           Note: Copy filed

     Is this enough info?
    Entry 5 is an odd one. Is that the only line relating to that one?
    Even a private individual charge should have an address and being added to the register so recently seems odd that it doesn't.
    You'd be able to order a copy of that particular charge but it's by post only (cheque/postal order payment) and costs £7 (form OC2 I think)
    It's possible that it's an error on Land Registry's part that the address is missing, you could also head over to https://www.gov.uk/guidance/contact-hm-land-registry and click to contact through email an enquiry.
  • GDB2222
    GDB2222 Posts: 26,224 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    GDB2222 said:
    The Charges Register says (I have altered the details):

    1 and 2 (These deal with covenants from many years ago.)
    3     (01.01.2018) REGISTERED CHARGE dated 1 December 2017
    4     (01.01.2018) Proprietor:  [Name of lender, company number, and address]
    5     (01.02.2020) Charge dated 1 February 2020 in favour of (Name of individual, but no address)
           Note: Copy filed

     Is this enough info?
    Entry 5 is an odd one. Is that the only line relating to that one?
    Even a private individual charge should have an address and being added to the register so recently seems odd that it doesn't.
    You'd be able to order a copy of that particular charge but it's by post only (cheque/postal order payment) and costs £7 (form OC2 I think)
    It's possible that it's an error on Land Registry's part that the address is missing, you could also head over to https://www.gov.uk/guidance/contact-hm-land-registry and click to contact through email an enquiry.
    Thanks. I’d better get a copy.
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 6,143 Organisation Representative
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    GDB2222 said:
    GDB2222 said:
    The Charges Register says (I have altered the details):

    1 and 2 (These deal with covenants from many years ago.)
    3     (01.01.2018) REGISTERED CHARGE dated 1 December 2017
    4     (01.01.2018) Proprietor:  [Name of lender, company number, and address]
    5     (01.02.2020) Charge dated 1 February 2020 in favour of (Name of individual, but no address)
           Note: Copy filed

     Is this enough info?
    Entry 5 is an odd one. Is that the only line relating to that one?
    Even a private individual charge should have an address and being added to the register so recently seems odd that it doesn't.
    You'd be able to order a copy of that particular charge but it's by post only (cheque/postal order payment) and costs £7 (form OC2 I think)
    It's possible that it's an error on Land Registry's part that the address is missing, you could also head over to https://www.gov.uk/guidance/contact-hm-land-registry and click to contact through email an enquiry.
    Thanks. I’d better get a copy.
    It’s a noted charge as explained so if you want a copy then you can apply using form OC2 as explained. Nothing to contact us about. 
    The noted charge will confirm the details supplied at the time so if you are trying to establish those then get a copy and go from there 
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Reece24
    Reece24 Posts: 41 Forumite
    10 Posts
    Hello,
    Is there anyway you are able to look and advise how an application is coming along for a possessory title to be provided on a piece of unregistered land at the rear of the garden on a property me and my partner are buying? We are hoping it's a straight forward application since all the neighbours gardens are the same size and their title plans include the full gardens yet ours does not. I can provide the title plan number for the currently title plan if you are able to assist at all.

    Thanks
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 6,143 Organisation Representative
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Reece24 said:
    Hello,
    Is there anyway you are able to look and advise how an application is coming along for a possessory title to be provided on a piece of unregistered land at the rear of the garden on a property me and my partner are buying? We are hoping it's a straight forward application since all the neighbours gardens are the same size and their title plans include the full gardens yet ours does not. I can provide the title plan number for the currently title plan if you are able to assist at all.

    Thanks
    Online forums aren’t the best way to get progress updates and your solicitor should be able to advise using their secure online portal to check progress. 
    There are some basic stages to how such applications are dealt with 
    1. lodgement and receipt - if we’ve got it then they should have a provisional title number and case reference. They can confirm receipt and should then know that due to current backlogs it’s likely to wait several months before it’s considered 
    2. Expedition - I’m guessing that the lodging solicitor has requested expedition due to your purchase. If so then that wait time is reduced to 2 weeks 
    3. Claiming unregistered land will rely on the claimant providing evidence to legally support their claim
    4. Site visit/survey - invariably required to confirm reality on ground and 
    5. wider checks e.g. contacting adjoining landowners
    So if it’s been lodged and expedited you know it’s being processed. The remaining stages can take several weeks to complete but they can’t be expedited. 
    So I’d suggest checking with your solicitor re what stage it’s at and going from there re timescales 
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Reece24
    Reece24 Posts: 41 Forumite
    10 Posts
    Reece24 said:
    Hello,
    Is there anyway you are able to look and advise how an application is coming along for a possessory title to be provided on a piece of unregistered land at the rear of the garden on a property me and my partner are buying? We are hoping it's a straight forward application since all the neighbours gardens are the same size and their title plans include the full gardens yet ours does not. I can provide the title plan number for the currently title plan if you are able to assist at all.

    Thanks
    Online forums aren’t the best way to get progress updates and your solicitor should be able to advise using their secure online portal to check progress. 
    There are some basic stages to how such applications are dealt with 
    1. lodgement and receipt - if we’ve got it then they should have a provisional title number and case reference. They can confirm receipt and should then know that due to current backlogs it’s likely to wait several months before it’s considered 
    2. Expedition - I’m guessing that the lodging solicitor has requested expedition due to your purchase. If so then that wait time is reduced to 2 weeks 
    3. Claiming unregistered land will rely on the claimant providing evidence to legally support their claim
    4. Site visit/survey - invariably required to confirm reality on ground and 
    5. wider checks e.g. contacting adjoining landowners
    So if it’s been lodged and expedited you know it’s being processed. The remaining stages can take several weeks to complete but they can’t be expedited. 
    So I’d suggest checking with your solicitor re what stage it’s at and going from there re timescales 
    I knew a forum may not be the best bet, the vendor's solicitor is due to chase today and update us. 
    Thank you for the info regarding the time scales and process however.
  • Land_Registry
    Land_Registry Posts: 6,143 Organisation Representative
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Reece24 said:
    I knew a forum may not be the best bet, the vendor's solicitor is due to chase today and update us. 
    Thank you for the info regarding the time scales and process however.
    No problem = just make sure they provide the title number/case reference and confirm it’s been expedited.
    If they do that then you are in the best possible place but will have to bear with the registration process. We will action each stage ASAP but the time between each stage is not always within our control so some patience will be required 
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
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