Mirror Wills and Probate - only one will taken to probate?

Grantyy

I understand there has been some confusion regards details and I think this is down to my original post, I attempted to put everything down and show how the solicitors have been unable/unwilling to answer simple questions as I thought it didn't seem right but I think actually she has failed to understand or listen to the fact that we didn't understand what probate is and why it was never granted on her Mum's Will?
For one reason or another the Solicitor back then decided that adding my GF to the land registry of the house was enough to protect her but that wouldn't have protected the Car and other assets which I am sure her Mum would have wanted her to have a share of but if thats not the case in law then it is OK.
All we are interested in is that her Mothers Will and the other parties Will are carried out as they meant as a couple.

Grantyy

indian_summer wrote: »

As your gf is executor she must be informed of all proceedings so dont worry nothing can be passed without her signature.

Maybe scrap the solicitor and deal with the other executors yourself,it would be a lot easier and cheaper.

Your gf was a beneficial owner of the house as a trust must have been created at the time of her mums death.Ie.house in gf name but mums partner living in it.That trust ceased on partners death so she now becomes the owner of it.Nothing can change that.

Your gf is executor of your moms will so now must now deal with the house now the trust is finished.
As executor its her responsibility to insure it,Put it up for sale etc.


An executors account must be created so all funds can be processed,funeral costs,debts paid etc.
The house monies will go into this account,they are separate from the rest of the estate.Your gf would get 50% of the house sale after fees etc.

From the info you have given and without seeing the wills this seems to be the case.Im rubbish at explaining things sorry

Edit..If both wills state that the residuary estate goes to "my children" and does not actually name each child surely this means children on both sides or am I missing something?
Im sure this was the intent of the testators.

This one too makes a lot of sense,
To answerr the last part the Wills are identical in all but the names of the Mum and Partners Children, My Girlfriend *Executor)and hers sibling on one and The Eldest Son of the other side (Executor) his siblings on the other one.
The Mum and partner were never married but the Will states of the intention to marry and that they should be treat as such. I will pull a couple of what I believe to be the main sections of the WIll in a minute if the kids behave long enough for me to do so

The long and short of the Will as I see it is that they leave everything to the surviving party, the house is held UPON TRUST and when the 2nd partner dies the residuary estate goes to the children of each side so in effect the Wills are 50/50 split for the 2 executors to distribute to their side accordingly.

poppystar

Grantyy wrote: »

Sorry I had little time yesterday but you have all helped, particularly this post from Poppy and the one from CTE 1111 as hearing that a Will does not have to go to probate is what we needed, so My Gf's Mums Will is still in effect regardless of it not being proven through probate, right?
Right. But probably best that you think of it as having been carried out four years ago rather than 'in effect' as it is something that was completed after mother's death.
We are flying blind a bit here as we do not know what was in the will obviously. If it said, for example, 'half house to GF remainder of assets to partner' then that is what should have happened at that time. It is then finished, over and done with. GF owns her bit of house and partner owns the rest in this example.
On partners death it is his will that will be proven and followed with no reference to mothers. That is why we have asked about whether he changed his will as he was then free to do.

this is what has complicated it for us as we kept being told that in the end it will go back to probate and of course my GF's Mums Will never went to probate but she is named on the land registry of the House and that is the only asset that really matters, as I said her Mum did put most the money into everything including the House and Car and with her Mums Will not going to probate we have been left confused were we stand on all assets but it seems at the very least she is protected regards the House.

I think there is an additional issue that is confusing you. Wills do not have to be 'fair' in any moral sense - they are simply what the person drawing up the will wants. They are that person's will and not affected by any other person's will, past or present. So the partner may be in possession of the assets willed to him by mother as in example above but he can then do what he wants - spend it all, leave it to just his children, leave to cat's home or leave it to GF . That is why we are asking if the mirror will is his latest will and what it actually says, also why people have asked what his assets were at death - has he spent it all on fast cars etc.
This may not seem fair to you but it is the situation. It would have been mother's choice not to leave other assets to GF on her death and after death she has no control of them.

Hope things are getting clearer, it is a steep learning curve and maybe the solicitor is not explaining in terms that you need and she may also be being a bit cagey if you, yourself contact her because at the end of the day you are not her client, the estate and executors are, so she may worry about confidentiality. Although if your GF is executor of partner's will then she should be able to get answers.

Grantyy

Manxman_in_exile wrote: »

OP - I know it may be very difficult but the above seems like a sensible approach to me. You need to deal with each will separately, in the order of death, and trace what happened to the mother's assets first. As suggested above the mother's will may not have required probate(?).


So long as her partner did not execute a new will after the mother's death, it ought to come down to straightforwardly following the terms of his mirror will. (Assuming, of course, that those can be clearly understood and the mirror wills weren't home made).


It's a great pity the lawyers you are dealing with can't be more helpful. I always think that if a professional can't explain in easily understood terms to a layman, then they may not be a very good professional.

I agree that the Solicitor is or has been the main part of the problem as she would not answer originally when I asked if my GF will get 50% of the house, she has now answered and basically said albeit saying from Memory twice (on record on my phone) that its a 50/50 split before saying that her instructions ended with probate and she has no instructions to deal with the money yet her colleage (on record) told us that the same lady will receive the money and be responsible for distributing it.
She further confused us by mentioning an Executors account as my GF said right away why do we need that? The solicitor said she strongly advises it and when I asked why she said incase of any conflict? which made us think well how can there be any conflict if either the Wills protect either side or the land registry shows 2 owners of the property?
Some extracts of the call I made are here and I think they clear most of it up but you can see how she could be more clear or reassuring.

People mentioned Me, my GF (Executor) Eldest Son of other party (2nd Executor) Mum (Gf's Mum) and Partner (Mums partner) & the Solicitor

Me - This probate thing, people keep saying it goes back to probate but GF's name isn't on there? We can't understand that when theres Mirror Wills that only one of them is attached to probate?
Solicitor - Right, so, The probates been granted from Mr Partners estate, GF and Partners Eldest Son are on there as the Executors so they now deal with the distribution of it. I at the moment have no instruction to deal with the monies because obviously my instruction finished when the probate was granted, so what should now happen is that when the house gets sold it should go to an executors account, so an account in Eldest Son and Gf's name and then they will deal with the distribution as per the terms of the 2 Wills.
Me - So what is the...So the probate, it's kind of irrelevant then, It's just gonna be down to the Wills?
Solicitor - Probate gave them the authority to sell, it's the Will that stipulates where it goes.
Me - So the probate isn't really in effect after the house sells then? Its just with the Mirror Wills...It keeps coming up obviously there are Mirror Wills but the probate attaches only one will which mentions all of Eldest Sons side
Solicitor - (hesitantly?) Because only one of the Wills has been proven
Me - Whats that mean?
Solicitor - (doesn't answer the Q) That makes no difference now so basically in terms of selling the house the probate gave the authority for them to sign the papers in their capacity as executors.
Me - Yeah, so what does the Will has not been proven mean? because obviously we've got a copy of the Will here and the Land registry does mention that it goes back to the Original Will of Mum. (I'll copy this section of Land Reg below this conversation)
Solicitor - (doesn't answer the Q again, though when I ask later she says it means it never went to probate)Yes, that doesn't matter, that's irrelevant because what now need to happen is its establishing who deals with the estate, in terms of how its distributed that's per the terms of the Will, OK so this is from memory, from memory so its 50/50 (Me, Yeah) Partners half gets distributed to his children, Mums half goes to her children (yeah) so all that needs to happen is that that money will go into an account and cheques or bank transfers need to happen from that account for everything to go to the individual parties (above and at end of conversation she firmly says we need Executors account so she contradicts herself here)
Me - Ok and just going back to the probate, has it been done right? because like I say
Solicitor interrupts, that's 100% been done correct I think, I think what has always been the problem is that there's always been a misunderstanding about executors and beneficiaries so who deals with it and who receives it is different, probate gives them the authority to deal with it the will says who receives the money.

---

This recording does go on but I am out of time atm, I will revisit it later if there is anything else worth noting

Grantyy

An extract of The land registry reads 5 - RESTRICTION: No disposition by the proprietors of the registered estate is to be registered unless they make a statutory declaration, or their conveyancer gives a certificate, that the disposition is in accordance with the terms of the Will of the late GF's Mum date -- or some variation thereof referred to in the declaration or certificate

It also names my GF the eldest son and the late partner as Proprietors.
Q) Do we need to remove the late partner or does it not matter if selling? It cannot be seen as a 3rd share to the other sides Will can it?

Grantyy

poppystar wrote: »

Hope things are getting clearer, it is a steep learning curve and maybe the solicitor is not explaining in terms that you need and she may also be being a bit cagey if you, yourself contact her because at the end of the day you are not her client, the estate and executors are, so she may worry about confidentiality. Although if your GF is executor of partner's will then she should be able to get answers.

Thanks Poppystar you have helped a lot.
She has certainly been cagey as you may be able to see from the call though the original one where she refused to answer if my GF was entitled to a 50% share was what really set the ball rolling.
Each and every call my GF has passed me on to her so I think she has been as open as she ever is going to be. I just see many opportunities where she could have put our minds at ease and it did get to the point where we were like why doesn't she just say this is what is going to happen to the money.

Grantyy

We know the original Will wasn't changed because we have a copy of the recent probate which attaches their sides Will but not ours, this was one of the main issues as in our eyes after speaking to the solicitor who told us our sides had not been proven that sounded as though ours is not being taken into account as only the one is attached to probate.

Another paragraph on a recent letter confused me a little too as it mentioned Mums partner as testator but Mum as an executor? At least thats how I saw it, I'll try to find that extract now.

It says Oath for executors at the top just not sure why GF's Mum is mentioned as executor, shouldn't she be another testator?

Extract
We are the Executors named in the said Will other executor GF's Mum having predeceased the testator

Grantyy

Main extracts of Mums Will

The beneficiary means Partner

If Beneficiary survives me for 28 days I give my share and contents to my trustees on trust for sale.
My trustees shall allow the beneficiary to reside in the property as long as he may wish and shall not take any steps to obtain sale etc
If at any time the beneficiary ceases to reside at the property or gives written content to a sale or becomes permanently incapale of residing there or dies then the beneficiaries rights under this clause shall end and my trustees shall hold any property hekld under this clause UPON TRUST to be divided between that of my children GF & Sibling who are then living and if more than one in equal shares.
_ I give all my real and personal property whatsoever and wheresoever not specifically devised or bequeathed by earlier provisions of this will to my trustees to sell upon trust to sell call in and convert into ready money all such parts of it as may not consist of ready money with absolute power to postpone sale and:
-to pay the income from the residue (my residuary estate) to my partner during his lifetime
- after the death of my partner to divide my Residuary estate between those of my Children GF and Sibling who survive me for a period of 28 days and if more than one in equal shares.

The standard provisions of the society of trust and estate practitioners (1st edition) shall apply

Not withstanding that my partner is making a Will in similar terms to this Will he and I have agreed that this my Will and his said will are not mutual Wills and accordingly that each of us shall be free to revoke our respective Wills at anytime whether before before or after the death of the other and shall not be under any obligation or trust to dispose of any of our respective property in accordance with the terms of said Wills.

Grantyy

Thats enough for now, I wrote most of the above whilst looking after my 1 & 2 Y/O's so you can imagine. We feel better with the situation if not still unsure why My GF's Mums Will never went to probate or at least why the solicitor altered the land registry rather than just extracting probate, maybe as the Will leaves all to the partner and then on to the children but it does say residuary estate, doesn't that mean everything she owned? I believe the intention would have been to leave all the surviving partner leaves to be split 50/50 as the wills are identical in all but the childrens names within them.
Thanks for all of the help to this point everyone!

Manxman_in_exile

Grantyy wrote: »

To answerr the last part the Wills are identical in all but the names of the Mum and Partners Children, My Girlfriend *Executor)and hers sibling on one and The Eldest Son of the other side (Executor) his siblings on the other one.
The Mum and partner were never married but the Will states of the intention to marry and that they should be treat as such. I will pull a couple of what I believe to be the main sections of the WIll in a minute if the kids behave long enough for me to do so

Grantyy - I don't wish to cause you further confusion, but are you saying that your GF and her sibling are only mentioned as residual beneficiaries on the mother's will and that only the partner's children are mentioned as residual beneficiaries on his will? That's how I read what you posted above, but hopefully not what you meant.


(EDIT: I suppose you may mean the executors are different on each will, but the beneficiaries are the same? Sorry - but you need to be very precise in your wording to help the experts on this board help you)


AIUI, with mirror wills the only differences will be the names of the mother and her partner. Everything else (including the names of the residual beneficiaries) should be identical on both wills. If they are not, these are not mirror wills...