Mirror Wills and Probate - only one will taken to probate?

Grantyy

Hi this is a long story so far so I will try to keep to the point although that may be difficult as we are quite confused but we greatly appreciate any help, my GF really needs some peace of mind and to understand what is likely to happen going forward.

If you are short on time but may be able to advise Our main Questions are

1 - Should mirror wills have gone to probate together rather than just one? Could our solicitor have made a mistake and not supplied my GF's Mums will as they are now saying the Will is unproven.
2 - Is it the case that the partner who survives the longest leaves most joint possessions to their side, I.E cars and accounts as they may have gone from joint to sole ownership, that seems unfair but is that the law? Don't the mirror wills which state leaving the residuary estate to the children on each side cover all of that?
3 - Do we need an executors account, we can't understand why the solictor can't just pay 50/50 to the executors as per terms of the Mirror Wills to be divided between each sides children?

Whats happened so far
My GF's Mum died a few years ago, with her new partner they had mirror wills made up in 08, the issue we are having which has been a constant worry for my GF is that when the solicitors (same one who made the wills) took it through probate it came back with My GF and the eldest named on the front page as Executors but only their mirror will was attached? So ours hasn't been proven which is a term we have only just heard despite asking the solicitor on numerous occasions why the probate does not have my GF named as a beneficiary and why her Mums will isn't also attached?
I have spoken to the solicitor a number of times and she has been evasive and even a little aggressive at times, such as when I said all we want to know is that my GF will get 50% as per her Mums Will and she replied it will go to probate, I said that I don't understand what that means and she replied it means it will go to probate. Asking why my GF's Mums will was not attached early on she stumbled and said she will check wit a colleague, she came back and said its all ok without really answering why its not on there. So if she wasn't initially sure despite her overseeing it that obviously raised big concerns and we have been left wondering if she is covering her mistakes and smoothing them over in the knowledge that as it stands the two parties are on the same page, problem is we don't really know them so we cannot trust them, we cannot understand why in the case of mirror wills both weren't attached to the probate and why they say my GF's Mums Will is not proven?
I called yesterday and I asked her straight why is only one will on the probate and she said that my GF's Mums will had not ben proven, I asked her what it meant twice before she said its irrelevent? My GF is on the land registry of the house and so is part owner but because we've been told it will go back to probate she is concerned she could sign the house off only for the money to go to the solicitors who then act on the only will attached to probate.
Other concerns were raised with these events
Citizens advice said it looked wrong and said maybe we should get further advice.
A lady my GF works for at a bank said she should be named as a beneficiary and not just executor on the probate.
my GF had to provide a signature I guess as executor to release funds from the remaining account and the lady in the bank said to her you are not set to receive anything including the house as you are not named on the probate? My GF came out white as a sheet as 90% of all proceeds were from her Mum and she is happy to split 50/50 as that was her Mums wishes but the thought of getting nothing is upsetting for her.
As with the Car they have agreed to split the proceeds 50/50 but it had gone missing off the drive, she asked were it was and the son said his Brother was looking after it, 2 months later he admitted selling it to his brother for a price which is likely family rates and we have to take his word that is what he got, we have never been sure if we have a right to anything from that despite my GF's Mum buying it. most of that uncertainty is down to the probate.

Is it a case that the partner that survives the longest gets all the power as that is how it seems? If so my GF would accept that but the House is another matter. My GF's Mums Will which of course is identical to the other sides says to leave her residuary estate to that of my Children so I interpret that as everything she owned.

The solicitor is now telling us we need an executors account? Which would mean travelling a long way to meet the other party yet they never mentioned this until we started asking questions regards the probate. I asked why it couldn't just be paid 50/50 to both executors to divide from their own accounts and again she was very evasive in the fact she would not answer if that could even be done. She said she strongly advises an executor account and one of her reasons was in case of conflict but if we have mirror Wills I don't see how they can be any conflict?
Yet if my GF's Mums will isn't proven despite the solicitors having a copy at the time it went to probate is it the case that they have accidentally only supplied one of the mirror wills and ours is not being taken into account, could this as we were told go back to probate and the house money all go to their side?

We are finding it hard to understand so If anybody can give us some insight and peace of mind we would be grateful

Manxman_in_exile

That's all a bit difficult to follow I'm a afraid. (I assumed GF was grandfather at first...)


So your girlfriend is executor of her mum's will? What does the will say?


I'm assuming that the mother's partner is still alive?


You say they had mirror wills? I understand these are often used in situations where partners intend to leave bequests to each other (with perhaps a provision as to what will happen if bothdie together) on the understanding that the surviving partner will subsequently honour the "intention" of the mirror wills. (That's not a very good explanation I'm afraid but other posters will explain better).


If mum has died and her partner survives, then only mum's will is relevant here. Her partner's will has nothing to do with it.


You'll need to supply better detail to help the more knowledgeable (than me) posters here.

Grantyy

Sorry about the lack of detail, none of us are the best with this kind of thing.
Her Partner has recently died and so both (Mirror) wills should come into effect shouldn't they but as I say, my GF's Mums is not attached to probate and the solicitor just yesterday told us its not been proven, so that is the main issue for us, does that mean he Mums will is not in effect alongside the other parties?

Grantyy

If necessary I can take some extracts from the will but the way I interpret it is as you say, they leave everything to each other, the house was held in trust and upon the surviving partner dying the residuary estate goes 50/50 to both sides to be divided between the each side.

Manxman_in_exile

So they are both deceased?


Unless the one who died last executed a new will before they died, then the terms of the mirror will should apply (AIUI).

Grantyy

Thanks Manxman, that seems obvious but then why did only one of the mirror wills go through probate? As I say my GF is named on the front cover of the probate along with the eldest son of the other side but attached is only their Will which names only my GF's Mums partners children.
After a few conversations regards probate and why only one will is attached the solicitor finally said that my GF's Mums will hasn't been proven but wouldn't answer what that meant? I asked another solicitor today what it meant and she said that it hadn't gone to probate, but why? She couldn't answer and said ask the other solicitor who is more involved but she will not give straight answers and that along with other advice is what has raised doubts all along.
Should both wills have gone to probate or is there cases where they don't need to? Surely the clue is in the word mirror, as in equal and should be treat the same unless there's something where they only process the partner who survives longest will but that's the problem, I don't really understand how probate works. It simply looks to me that when the solicitors put it through they did not supply my Gf's Mums Will, is that a mistake or for some reason unknown to us the way it should have been done?
We have been told on several occasions that when all money is received it goes back to probate so if My Gf's Mums will is not proven then will she get her 50% from the sale of the house simply becasue she is on the land registry.
Our solicitor originally said many times it will go to probate without giving a straight answer on if my GF will get her share but yesterday she said probate is irrelevant which totally contradicted herself? I feel as though she made a mistake putting only one will through probate and intends to rely on the good will of the other party to give my GF her share but if thats the case then its simply not good enough knowing how people can turn when money is involved. My GF has a heart of gold but we do not know the other side very well at all and simply want the wishes of her Mum to be seen through which means both Mirror wills being taken into account.
Right now we are not sure that is happening and getting a straight answer out of her solicitor is not easy. She could have put our minds at ease four phone calls ago so why hasn't she?

poppystar

If GF's mother died in 2008, what happened then? Who was executor? Who took it to probate - was a solicitor involved at that stage or was nothing actually done at all?

If it did go to probate then you can check what went by getting a copy from the probate office.

What happens after that is a separate matter as the partner could even have changed their will so it is what happened after mother died that you need to get clear as a first step. hence the first questions above. Start there first

Keep_pedalling

It sounds like, when she died no one actually applied for probate. This should have been the executors, but if they were not aware that they actually were executors and her partner did nothing then nothing is what happened.

You do need to obtain her original will as well as his, otherwise you won't be able to establish exactly what his estate is made up of. And yes you will need to carry out two lots of probate starting with your GFs mother.

Edit. Another possibility is that the partner was the executor for the first will and he actually completed probate, and if this is the case then the probate office will have a record of it.

Grantyy

When my Gf's Mum died she went to the solicitors together with her Mums partner and the eldest son of the other side and had their names put on the land registry of the house, the solicitor said this was to protect my GF's Mums wishes, as far as she's aware nothing was done with probate and she wasn't advised to do anything else by the solicitors at that point or 4 years later where we are now, the same solicitor made the mirror wills and have been involved at each point.
We assumed that as one will went to probate recently that both should have gone?

poppystar

Grantyy wrote: »

When my Gf's Mum died she went to the solicitors together with her Mums partner and the eldest son of the other side and had their names put on the land registry of the house, the solicitor said this was to protect my GF's Mums wishes, as far as she's aware nothing was done with probate and she wasn't advised to do anything else by the solicitors at that point or 4 years later where we are now, the same solicitor made the mirror wills and have been involved at each point.
We assumed that as one will went to probate recently that both should have gone?

Check with the probate office site to see if probate was done after GF mother passed if you can't get an answer from the solicitor.

It may possibly be that her estate was so small that probate was not needed as I think you'll find the house part could have been done without probate (someone will correct me if I am wrong on that!). Also the non property part could have all passed to the partner at that stage which is not unusual.

His will would then be the basis for any transfer to children on the second death. A will he could possibly have changed.

Both wills would not go to probate at the same time but as and when the deaths occur.

cte1111

The 2 wills are totally separate. The fact that they were drawn up at the same time and with the same provisions is irrelevant.

When your Mum died, the provisions of her will should have been followed. It is likely that part of this should have been your Mum's will going to probate, however it seems that this did not happen.

Your Mum's partner could at that point have drawn up a new will, this could say whatever he chose. When he later died, his will would go to probate.