Brexit, The Economy and House Prices (Part 2)

Rusty_Shackleton

economic wrote: »

im willing to bet yes. of course many poor people (poor in quality fo life) are also recent migrants too who may not have these issues so that would be an exception i guess.

Thank you for confirming. Ive got nothing else to add, I think everyone can see exactly the sort of person you are. The only silver lining is at least youre honest about it, most people would never let on they harbour such incredibly unpleasant beliefs. You should try and meet some poor people, theres plenty of them, they might surprise you when they don't all have a needle hanging out their arm

economic

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Thank you for confirming. Ive got nothing else to add, I think everyone can see exactly the sort of person you are. The only silver lining is at least youre honest about it, most people would never let on they harbour such incredibly unpleasant beliefs. You should try and meet some poor people, theres plenty of them, they might surprise you when they don't all have a needle hanging out their arm

i take it you think im a bad person? im not sure why you got that from what i said. im just stating what i think. doesnt mean i am a bad person from what i said. please explain this wild accusation.

Rusty_Shackleton

economic wrote: »

i take it you think im a bad person? im not sure why you got that from what i said. im just stating what i think. doesnt mean i am a bad person from what i said. please explain this wild accusation.

Would you think somebody was a bad person if they said the majority of black people are addicts/gamblers etc.? Youre making wild assumptions about a vast number of people from a vast number of different backgrounds, and basically putting their situation down to character flaws. When you do that about a specific race, its racism. Doing it about another group is pretty ugly. There are no shortage of reports in the media and studies giving many different reasons for poverty, and you seem to be saying none of thats the case its actually because theyre addicts etc. Youre victim blaming and ignoring a huge amount of evidence that shows government failure, lack of proper regulation and enforcement, pernicious businesses etc. Are causing real problems in our country!

Also, you think its acceptable for people to tax dodge as long as it benefits you personally, even though its theft from everyone else. Thats benefitting from the proceeds of crime. Thats pretty low, albeit a far too commonly held position.

economic

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Would you think somebody was a bad person if they said the majority of black people are addicts/gamblers etc.? Youre making wild assumptions about a vast number of people from a vast number of different backgrounds, and basically putting their situation down to character flaws. When you do that about a specific race, its racism. Doing it about another group is pretty ugly. There are no shortage of reports in the media and studies giving many different reasons for poverty, and you seem to be saying none of thats the case its actually because theyre addicts etc. Youre victim blaming and ignoring a huge amount of evidence that shows government failure, lack of proper regulation and enforcement, pernicious businesses etc. Are causing real problems in our country!

Also, you think its acceptable for people to tax dodge as long as it benefits you personally, even though its theft from everyone else. Thats benefitting from the proceeds of crime. Thats pretty low, albeit a far too commonly held position.

i never said all poor people are gamblers/druggies. all im saying is those with poor quality of lives tend to be gamblers/druggies/mental health problems and much of the poor (in monetary terms) also fall into this.

please provide your evidence of other reasons for people being poor and have poor quality of lives? that would be helpful.

as for tax, i said tax evasion should be stopped obviously. but of course why should i care if i can get uber taxis for cheap? im not the one breaking the law. its upto the enforcemenrt teams to stop it, not me.

i personally try to pay as little tax as is legally possible. but i always pay whats legally due.

Rusty_Shackleton

economic wrote: »

i never said all poor people are gamblers/druggies. all im saying is those with poor quality of lives tend to be gamblers/druggies/mental health problems and much of the poor (in monetary terms) also fall into this.

please provide your evidence of other reasons for people being poor and have poor quality of lives? that would be helpful.

as for tax, i said tax evasion should be stopped obviously. but of course why should i care if i can get uber taxis for cheap? im not the one breaking the law. its upto the enforcemenrt teams to stop it, not me.

i personally try to pay as little tax as is legally possible. but i always pay whats legally due.

Reports such as the article I posted earlier are all too common (and not just in the guardian haha), those are an excellent start. Then there are nunerous reports from charities such as those that run food banks who work very much on the frontline of poverty. Councils have reported the same issues. You must have seen the stream of related storys about poverty and how it extends into normal working families, who just happen to be poor. But youve previously said you dont believe these reports, that all the sources have an agenda (presumably you meant beyond the agenda of drawing attention to rising levels of poverty).

The problem with the conclusion youre drawing about poverty and character flaws it that it unjustly fosters an atmosphere of the victims being at fault, that they have moral deficiencies etc. Thats pretty much the most common way society's demonise and dehumanise some group or another. Its wrong and it stops society dealing with the actual causes.

You might not be directly breaking the law, but you are supporting and facilitating it. Its not your responsibility to enforce the rules, but it is all of ours collective responsibility to not encourage it, its theft from all of us. At some point people need to recognise the race to the bottom harms us all, suck it up and pay a little bit more. The end results cost more than just money if we dont.

economic

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Reports such as the article I posted earlier are all too common (and not just in the guardian haha), those are an excellent start. Then there are nunerous reports from charities such as those that run food banks who work very much on the frontline of poverty. Councils have reported the same issues. You must have seen the stream of related storys about poverty and how it extends into normal working families, who just happen to be poor. But youve previously said you dont believe these reports, that all the sources have an agenda (presumably you meant beyond the agenda of drawing attention to rising levels of poverty).

The problem with the conclusion youre drawing about poverty and character flaws it that it unjustly fosters an atmosphere of the victims being at fault, that they have moral deficiencies etc. Thats pretty much the most common way society's demonise and dehumanise some group or another. Its wrong and it stops society dealing with the actual causes.

You might not be directly breaking the law, but you are supporting and facilitating it. Its not your responsibility to enforce the rules, but it is all of ours collective responsibility to not encourage it, its theft from all of us. At some point people need to recognise the race to the bottom harms us all, suck it up and pay a little bit more. The end results cost more than just money if we dont.

what do you want me to do, ask each uber driver if they are evading tax? or ask for a tax return before using the service? i dont know if they are evading tax or not, so how am i knowingly supporting it?

having a !!!!!! life is of course due to the reasons i mentioned. im being realistic. you are just being politically correct. its better to have most people rise up and few fall to the bottom, then for all to fall to the bottom. welcome to capitalism, where your genetics and upbringing really do determine your direction and circumstances in life.

GreatApe

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Well yes, your circular logic of 'dysfunctional people have dysfunctional lives' would of course, by definition, be true. But thats not what you said... You said (im paraphrasing but believe ive got the gist of it right) the majority of those in the UK that dont have decent lives arent doing better because theyre dysfunctional.

Take a look at some of the issues raised here:
https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/aug/24/inside-gig-economy-vulnerable-human-underbelly-of-uk-labour-market

If you're a courier driver trying to provide for his family, do you think a 'decent' life involves such appalling treatment from your employer? Forced into self employment, lose benefits like pensions, get fined 400 quid if you need a day off at short notice, or having the threat of further work withheld if you dont jump to their liking? That fosters actual poverty, insecurity, the inability to plan for the future... It creates stress and anxiety that will impact on the individual and probably on their partners and children.

Firstly, do you accept thats an appalling way to be treated, when for all intents and purposes you are an employee. I dont care if theyre technically self employed, its a gross loophole. These arent professional consultants or tradesmen deciding their own work, hours etc.

Secondly, do you honestly think the hundreds of thousands of couriers/uber drivers and others in similar positions are all drunks, druggies and gamblers?

I know a couple of uber drivers and they have decent functional lives what makes you think that its a bad existence?

Also a lot of uber drivers do have a mild form of 'dysfunction' and that is the inability to speak/read/write English as good as a local. Of course I am talking about the first gen migrants which probably make up a disproportionate number of these uber type jobs but even with much lower reading/writing/speaking skills I would say the majority of them have good quality lives much better than most poeple who live in India or most people who lived in this country 50-100 years ago

You mentioned you dont agree increasing benrfits would solve the problem - thats fine, not only did I not mention any specific remedies, but my issue is that you're pinning peoples situations on thenselves

I dont attribute anyone situation positive or negative to 'themselves' because no one chooses their hardware (DNA) or software (Upbringing/environmental)

when in fact issues such as those highlighted above are the result of political decisions and inaction.

I would agree that companies like uber should most likely employ their workers directly.
However I also understand that if you were able to push up conditions and pay some of the people working for uber now would become unemployed as they would be displaced by people with higher skills who are attracted by the better conditions and pay

There is a general question about what to do with the very lowest skilled people, or even people with ok skills but little or no English language (speaking reading and writing) skills. These people only really have self employment and perhaps the black market things you want to ban.

Oh and dont worry too much about uber it wont be around in ten years time

How about rather than spend money we start simply with clamping down on s**t companys that treat people so appalling

Nobody who works for uber is a slave they can move at any time especially considering we have a benefits system so its not like they will starve.

I would not be against some state intervention in competition and more regulation, however this might just be me being foolish and thinking it might be successful today when most evidence seems to suggest it hasn't been successful in the past so we have to be careful here.

and ensure they have the same legal protections you and I enjoy at work

I have zero legal protection at work and zero guarantee of income and at times I have had negative income having had to put in money to keep things going

, and restore a little dignity and stability into these peoples lives.

If we are talking about people here legally then the system as set up already guarantees decent (good) lives so long as they are not dysfunctional. Go to a benefits site and input details for a family on low pay and see what the results are

Surely that should be agreeable to anyone but those profiteering off of others' misery?

What you do not understand is that business is about identifying (or in much rarer cases creating) demand and fulfilling it. The reason why all developed economies more or less have full employment is that the people are fee to allocate themselves as such to meet their needs and wants. Some people of course get very rich in the process often people who do a lot of the identifying and organizing im not sure there is anything particularly wrong with that especially considering even the poor in this country have good lives and access to a lot of the means of production

The problem is when people like you seem to think these people are victims of themselves, when it has nothing to do with individual decisions or circumstances.

I know that is the party line but just for a day drop it and look around you with objective eyes

This is a great country with lots of opportunity high wages and the potential to live good lives.

The problem is when people like you seem to think these people are victims of themselves

Why do you have to keep repeating these lies?

I have said multiple times I dont blame dysfunctional people for being dysfunctional no one would willingly choose it. That does not change the fact that their lives are dysfunctional because they are dysfunctional

I really think your having a hard time with this let me try it another way. A person who is born blind, it isn't their fault, but we can say that most blind people will have much harder lives than non blind people. Whats so hard to accept about that? Well its the same if you talk about the brain, someone born with a predisposition to alcoholism will have a harder life if they become alcoholics than someone who doesn't become an alcoholic

GreatApe

economic wrote: »

or maybe the uber drivers can go back to their own country where life was clearly worse (otherwise why come to the uk in the first place)?

A non dysfunctional uber driver with a non dysfunctional family can have a great life in this country.

For instance in their shoes if I had no other option I would work about 30 hours a week and the tax credits and benefits can top it up to a living family income. Or maybe even go to university, I am right in thinking you can go at any age and the government and student loans cover you for 3-4 years? Use that time to skill up in something or try to make contracts or even simply learn UK culture and language better to try and get work not right at the bottom of the pile. Hell if nothing else you are 3-4 years closer to retirement

economic

GreatApe wrote: »

A non dysfunctional uber driver with a non dysfunctional family can have a great life in this country.

For instance in their shoes if I had no other option I would work about 30 hours a week and the tax credits and benefits can top it up to a living family income. Or maybe even go to university, I am right in thinking you can go at any age and the government and student loans cover you for 3-4 years? Use that time to skill up in something or try to make contracts or even simply learn UK culture and language better to try and get work not right at the bottom of the pile. Hell if nothing else you are 3-4 years closer to retirement

yeh exactly. the poor have never had it better. and the uk is a great place for the poor. they are lucky (the non dysfunctional ones of course).

GreatApe

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

There are people working full time using food banks...

Not many people, and I suspect they are dysfunctional or dishonest like this woman on the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-34552721/michelle-dorrell-why-i-was-so-angry-on-question-time

She claims she goes hungry as she has so little that the kids come first and she last. Just watch the video she says this with a stright face while two dogs are in the housing eating away. So she supposedly starves her overweight self making sure the kids and dogs get fed first
Oh and she clearly runs a front business (fake) to claim tax credits. The best bit is she now works for momentum!:rotfl:

We all saw what you think of nurses that use them, the usual 'theyre clearly addocts/gamblers' etc. If that were true, im sure the daily mail would have got some photos and had a propaganda piece by now!

Build it and they will come

You ignore the poverty and suffering of those in your own country because you dont want to believe its true.

There is no true poverty in the UK but there is a lot of suffering mainly induced by dysfunctional families

Tell me, what sort of evidence would convince you?

Easy someone needs to do a report of people who have non ideal lives and find out what the real reason is and we can compare how many of them have !!!! lives due to dysfunctional lives and how many have !!!! lives because of economic conditions

There have been numerous reports and bits of research done that show these issues exist and its affecting far more than those on benefits/the homeless... Do you seriously believe that loads of charities, media organisations, researchers etc. Have banded together in some conspiracy to convince everyone there's an underclass that doesnt actually exist? Do you realise how delusional that sounds?

No you misunderstand (possibly on purpose)

Im not saying there isnt poverty
Im not saying there isnt suffering
Im not saying food banks dont exist

I am saying a lot of the people affected are or have dysfunctional families and if you want to fix them or their problems your going to have to fix the dysfunction. More food banks wont solve poverty, fewer alcoholics fewer drug users will certainly help


Apparently there are 1.4 million alcohol dependent people in the UK of which 33,000 die per year from it. (and if 33,000 die each year you can be sure many more have terrible accidents and life changing events due to it like losing their liver functions etc)

How many people in the uk starve to death? Probably not even 33 people per year. So whats this nonsense about food banks and people starving.

Why are you ignorning the 1.4 million alcholics with very !!!!!! lives 33,000 of who die each year

Well there isnt any politics in it for you so screw the alcoholics let me cry about a woman on the BBC pretending she is starving as she hasnt the money for food after her kids are fed. The fat woman with two big dogs gets your sympathy the alcoholics dont