Brexit, The Economy and House Prices (Part 2)

GreatApe

GreatApe wrote: »

So who are the 20% with !!!! lives

Certainly alcoholics have !!!! lives
Certainly drug addicts have !!!! lives
Certainly gambling addicts have !!!! lives
Certainly family members of these people often have !!!! lives
Certainly people and families who suffer physical or rental abuse have !!!! lives
Etc

All forms of dysfunctional lives that are tough

That's not to write them off I think we should help were we can. Like banning retail betting even if it's a net loss to the Treasury

There are of course some functional families who also have difficult lives too. However I've never meet anyone who I thought hmmmm if only benefits are higher this dysfunctional person/family would not be dysfunctional. So I don't like it when a lefty says things are !!!! (which they aren't) and then tries to pin the blame onto taxation policy (which has little to nothing to do with the largest cause of unhappyness and suffering which is dysfunctional people/families)

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Having had to visit A&E in the early hours I'm extremely tired, so I'm going to repeat this once more, and then i'll be ignoring any more of your boring comments.

The claim made was that only people who are dysfunctional in some way or another are those who aren't having a 'decent' life in the UK. I refute this claim. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim to provide evidence to support it, which contrary to his claims, he has not done. Saying that stats show on average we have big houses/earn enough etc. isn't evidence to support his point.

If the lack of a "decent" living in the UK was purely down to addiction/gambling.. blah blah blah, it would be an astounding finding in social research. It would be incredibly easy to produce evidence to support this claim. It doesn't exist, because the claim is fiction.

I (nor anyone else) can prove a negative. I cannot produce evidence that says "dysfunction isn't why some people in the UK dont have decent lives", that's not how research works, research looks for the positives, i.e. what DOES cause x, what prevents Y etc. There is no doubt research which looks into more sensible causes, but it's a very complicated thing to look into (e.g. what is classified as decent? social research would be looking into a specific area such income, equality, specific freedoms etc.). I would need to be framing the question then finding the research. It is eminently more sensible for the person making the claim in the first place to produce their evidence, and we discuss from there if they've got anything to support their claim.

All I'm asking for, is for anyone wanting to make such a grotesque and offensive claim, to explain where they've seen evidence of this, and produce it. If it's a personal opinion, state so, but don't portray it as fact.

It simply logically follows.

Dysfunctional people almost always have dysfunctional lives
That doesn't seem at all controversial or contestable its almost as controversial as saying water is wet and you crying oh prove it

So let's try the opposite. How many people in the UK have !!!! lives but are not dysfunctional?
I don't know any. Do you? But I know dozens who have !!!! lives and are dysfunctional

Maybe you could give me the ratio you have experienced and we can see if its actually much different.


The more interesting part of the topic would be, do dysfunctional people become poor or do poor people become dysfunctional?

Private_Church

Jon_B wrote: »

I work in a business that exclusively sells European produce into the U.K. Market. There is no UK alternative as it is a protected market (think food and you are in the right ball park). We price quarterly and right now it's carnage. Putting prices up 5% for the last quarter of this year I don't think will even cut it. Nobody knows where the £ will be at Christmas.

We actually spoke to the banks last week and they were saying they expect it to still be 1.09 next March. What do they know? It's already 1.08 and falling.

.

Why are you pricing quarterly?.

I run a business and buy glass,double glazed sealed units etc and the price of glass is linked to the price of oil so we have seen a very volatile market in the past few years and my suppliers set the price monthly so why can't you ? or at the very least bimonthly.

Just to add ,the Banks know as much as you and I do otherwise they wouldn't have needed UK taxpayers bailing them out in 2008.

GreatApe

phillw wrote: »

You may just disagree what constitutes a "decent life" and "dysfunctional in some way or another".

There is a huge percentage of working poor. Some people will consider that they still have a decent life, or that their inability to earn more money (or in some cases spend less money) makes them dysfunctional in some way or another.

The extremes of drug addicts who steal and sell whatever they can to feed their habit are easy to pigeonhole, but it feels a bit more icky to judge people who are trying hard but still don't have "enough" money.

In advanced countries you can live off minimum wage or benefits just fine and you can have a decent life.

Rusty doesn't like that fact so he needs to try and paint a picture of the UK and its government being evil not giving enough to the poor who are forced to use food banks sleep rough and take drugs just to cope which is of course a fiction put in place for propaganda reason.

There is of course suffering and unhappiness in the UK but its primarily down to dysfunctional individuals and families.

Rusty_Shackleton

GreatApe wrote: »

It simply logically follows.

Dysfunctional people almost always have dysfunctional lives
That doesn't seem at all controversial or contestable its almost as controversial as saying water is wet and you crying oh prove it

So let's try the opposite. How many people in the UK have !!!! lives but are not dysfunctional?
I don't know any. Do you? But I know dozens who have !!!! lives and are dysfunctional

Maybe you could give me the ratio you have experienced and we can see if its actually much different.


The more interesting part of the topic would be, do dysfunctional people become poor or do poor people become dysfunctional?

Well yes, your circular logic of 'dysfunctional people have dysfunctional lives' would of course, by definition, be true. But thats not what you said... You said (im paraphrasing but believe ive got the gist of it right) the majority of those in the UK that dont have decent lives arent doing better because theyre dysfunctional.

Take a look at some of the issues raised here:
https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/aug/24/inside-gig-economy-vulnerable-human-underbelly-of-uk-labour-market

If you're a courier driver trying to provide for his family, do you think a 'decent' life involves such appalling treatment from your employer? Forced into self employment, lose benefits like pensions, get fined 400 quid if you need a day off at short notice, or having the threat of further work withheld if you dont jump to their liking? That fosters actual poverty, insecurity, the inability to plan for the future... It creates stress and anxiety that will impact on the individual and probably on their partners and children.

Firstly, do you accept thats an appalling way to be treated, when for all intents and purposes you are an employee. I dont care if theyre technically self employed, its a gross loophole. These arent professional consultants or tradesmen deciding their own work, hours etc.

Secondly, do you honestly think the hundreds of thousands of couriers/uber drivers and others in similar positions are all drunks, druggies and gamblers?

You mentioned you dont agree increasing benrfits would solve the problem - thats fine, not only did I not mention any specific remedies, but my issue is that you're pinning peoples situations on thenselves, when in fact issues such as those highlighted above are the result of political decisions and inaction. How about rather than spend money we start simply with clamping down on s**t companys that treat people so appalling, and ensure they have the same legal protections you and I enjoy at work, and restore a little dignity and stability into these peoples lives. Surely that should be agreeable to anyone but those profiteering off of others' misery? The problem is when people like you seem to think these people are victims of themselves, when it has nothing to do with individual decisions or circumstances.

economic

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Well yes, your circular logic of 'dysfunctional people have dysfunctional lives' would of course, by definition, be true. But thats not what you said... You said (im paraphrasing but believe ive got the gist of it right) the majority of those in the UK that dont have decent lives arent doing better because theyre dysfunctional.

Take a look at some of the issues raised here:
https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/aug/24/inside-gig-economy-vulnerable-human-underbelly-of-uk-labour-market

If you're a courier driver trying to provide for his family, do you think a 'decent' life involves such appalling treatment from your employer? Forced into self employment, lose benefits like pensions, get fined 400 quid if you need a day off at short notice, or having the threat of further work withheld if you dont jump to their liking? That fosters actual poverty, insecurity, the inability to plan for the future... It creates stress and anxiety that will impact on the individual and probably on their partners and children.

Firstly, do you accept thats an appalling way to be treated, when for all intents and purposes you are an employee. I dont care if theyre technically self employed, its a gross loophole. These arent professional consultants or tradesmen deciding their own work, hours etc.

Secondly, do you honestly think the hundreds of thousands of couriers/uber drivers and others in similar positions are all drunks, druggies and gamblers?

You mentioned you dont agree increasing benrfits would solve the problem - thats fine, not only did I not mention any specific remedies, but my issue is that you're pinning peoples situations on thenselves, when in fact issues such as those highlighted above are the result of political decisions and inaction. How about rather than spend money we start simply with clamping down on s**t companys that treat people so appalling, and ensure they have the same legal protections you and I enjoy at work, and restore a little dignity and stability into these peoples lives. Surely that should be agreeable to anyone but those profiteering off of others' misery? The problem is when people like you seem to think these people are victims of themselves, when it has nothing to do with individual decisions or circumstances.

or maybe the uber drivers can go back to their own country where life was clearly worse (otherwise why come to the uk in the first place)?

Rusty_Shackleton

GreatApe wrote: »

In advanced countries you can live off minimum wage or benefits just fine and you can have a decent life.

Rusty doesn't like that fact so he needs to try and paint a picture of the UK and its government being evil not giving enough to the poor who are forced to use food banks sleep rough and take drugs just to cope which is of course a fiction put in place for propaganda reason.

There is of course suffering and unhappiness in the UK but its primarily down to dysfunctional individuals and families.

And here you show your complete lacknof understanding at whats going on in the bottom rungs of society. Its not just homeless people having a !!!! time. There are people working full time using food banks... We all saw what you think of nurses that use them, the usual 'theyre clearly addocts/gamblers' etc. If that were true, im sure the daily mail would have got some photos and had a propaganda piece by now!

You ignore the poverty and suffering of those in your own country because you dont want to believe its true. Tell me, what sort of evidence would convince you? There have been numerous reports and bits of research done that show these issues exist and its affecting far more than those on benefits/the homeless... Do you seriously believe that loads of charities, media organisations, researchers etc. Have banded together in some conspiracy to convince everyone there's an underclass that doesnt actually exist? Do you realise how delusional that sounds?

economic

uber etc have been immensly positive overall for the economy. it has provided alternative cheaper transportation, provided jobs for the very low skilled, reduced traffic as a lot of the time as a drop off happens a new customer arrives at the same place, and created demand for good and services across the economy as the uber drivers get paid.

Rusty_Shackleton

economic wrote: »

or maybe the uber drivers can go back to their own country where life was clearly worse (otherwise why come to the uk in the first place)?

Right, so all uber drivers are immigrants? Unless theyre here illegally, do you believe they shouldnt have the same legal protections against exploitation as anyone else?

economic

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

If that were true, im sure the daily mail would have got some photos and had a propaganda piece by now!

they wouldnt as they wouldnt want to p!ss off a large number of their readership who are poor, hence likely drug addicts and gamblers

Rusty_Shackleton

economic wrote: »

uber etc have been immensly positive overall for the economy. it has provided alternative cheaper transportation, provided jobs for the very low skilled, reduced traffic as a lot of the time as a drop off happens a new customer arrives at the same place, and created demand for good and services across the economy as the uber drivers get paid.

Hahahahaha, not even gonna touch this. Its too ridiculous, you are beyond hope (or have been living in a cave for the past few years) if youre seriously defending a company like uber. Theyve done eff all for the economy. Almost any economic benefit has come from displacing taxi drivers, which like them or not, is not driving growth its simply shifting the money from one company to another.