Training away from the office

sangie595

Latheofheaven wrote: »

Well hey, obviously I am the bad guy. I mean without me speaking up staff would have been paid single rate rather than time and a half for overtime. And they wouldn't have been paid travel time to which they were entitled. Maybe I am wrong in this but, as I said, I have been given wrong information repeatedly by management so you can hardly blame me for questioning when new rules come in that are to the detriment of my colleagues. I personally don't lose out from this but my colleagues do, hence I am trying to help them out.

You made it personal. But that is your issue, not mine. I only asked for help.

That is what you are making yourself out to be. Nobody has criticised you for any of those other issues. Nobody has suggested that you should not have spoken up. If those are the terms, those are the terms - although I am rather surprised anyone in the NHS is getting time and a half these days, as well as flexible working hours. What you are failing to respond to is a point that I have now made twice - the answer to this is in your terms of employment. And believe me, it's in there, because the NHS terms of employment make an encyclopedia look concise. You are obviously not backward about coming forward, and don't have a qualm about calling in the union - so why are you here arguing with a bunch of people who don't employ you and quoting terms of employers that you don't work for? If you think your are right about this, go to the union. Go to the terms of employment. Find the proof you seek in the places you should be looking!

Latheofheaven

What you are failing to respond to is a point that I have now made twice - the answer to this is in your terms of employment. And believe me, it's in there, because the NHS terms of employment make an encyclopedia look concise

You think I didn't look in the terms and conditions first? The policy is sketchy and doesn't cover this exact situation. I have asked the union. We are continuing to talk about this and other issues. I wondered if anyone had experience of this, either as NHS employees or experts in the field because the union can only go off a sketchy policy and try to interpret it.

I don't know why you are surprised that NHS workers still get paid overtime. Would you rather they worked 60 hours at a flat rate?

sangie595

Latheofheaven wrote: »

You think I didn't look in the terms and conditions first? The policy is sketchy and doesn't cover this exact situation. I have asked the union. We are continuing to talk about this and other issues. I wondered if anyone had experience of this, either as NHS employees or experts in the field because the union can only go off a sketchy policy and try to interpret it.

I don't know why you are surprised that NHS workers still get paid overtime. Would you rather they worked 60 hours at a flat rate?

Well plenty of other public sector employees do, so that is why I was surprised. Premium overtime rates are increasingly rare, and I cannot think of any staff I know who get them whilst also having flexible working arrangements. Time and a half is very rare in these austere times. I don't even know any nurses who get overtime at premium rates!

And nobody makes you work 60 hours. That is why it is called overtime.

Latheofheaven

Medical staff still get overtime at premium rates at my trust. They stopped offering it to other staff. They use bank to cover instead. I think it's a good idea and they should roll it out across the board. But they told us we weren't entitled to it when we were. It is the misinformation that bothers me. And the fact I have to go chasing facts because my managers don't/won't bother.

getmore4less

Suggest a read of A4C pay rates.

Plenty of trusts still use the standard rates.

TELLIT01

Additional travel time to and from the training location should certainly be included in the 'working hours', as should the breaks when working away from your normal location. It's not possible for you to work when the trainer want to take breaks.
When I worked for DWP people were expected to return to the office at the end of a training session wherever practical. That always seemed pointless to me and it never happened anywhere else I worked - public or private sector.
DWP even expected new staff, who were in training and therefore couldn't do anything in the office, to hang around until their 'normal' working hours were completed. That simply built up resentment in the newbies, although it did give them a sense of what they'd let themselves in for! :-)

ThemeOne

jobbingmusician wrote: »

Actually, I don't quite agree with this bit. I do have some sympathy with the OP - if a course is advertised as finishing at 4.30, that is when it should finish and that is the time that should be paid for. If the OP has booked a train to return home which accounts for a 4.30 finish, a 4pm finish simply means that they will simply have half an hour to 'kill'. I think they should be paid for the advertised course time. This is the course that has presumably been commissioned and paid for (and I have plenty of experience of course trainers finishing courses early. Of course, it is their choice and THEY normally gain free time from finishing early, for the same fixed fee...:rotfl:)

Then you will know there are plenty of valid reasons why a course can finish early. Some activities are by their very nature variable as to duration, and training is one of them.

debtisnotme

Latheofheaven wrote: »

As an additional point, I asked someone who works in the civil service how it works for them (also flexi time) and they get 7.5 hours plus travel time, even if they finish early.

Then they are either lying or not following the rules.

KiKi

I just don't 'get' it. If you finish at 1600, instead of 1630, then you either: go back to work for another 30 minutes (paid), or go home and have that time as leisure time (unpaid).

Does it really matter that you can't make appointments just in case you don't finish until 1630? Do you really have nothing to do in that time at work or at home that doesn't need an appointment?!

Honestly, I have to travel for work: abroad, and in the UK. If I don't get home until 2000, then I don't get paid for that. I'm just late home - that's life. If I travel to the Middle East, then they will pay the day I travel (if it's a Saturday for eg), but the fact that it was 3 hours to the airport, a 9 hour flight and then another 2 hours from the airport through passport control and to the hotel is neither here nor there. I get paid for the day, even though it was 14 hours of 'my' time taken.

If the NHS seriously operates in a "I want to be paid for every hour including travel time" policy then no wonder we're screwed.

Here's a good tip: if your employer isn't screwing you over all the time, then it tends to work better when you're flexible, rather than wondering about your rights. You get paid 6 hours for that day, then have to do 8 another day. Does it really matter? If they were underpaying you consistently, day in day out, then fine. But all this fuss for one training course...?!

nimbo

If it makes you feel better you have way better working flexi arrangements than me if you get overtime and I'm based at the local authority. I get paid for 37 hours a week and work 60. I had to take two emergency days off last week - (partner in hospital) and they still got more than a full time week off me. Haha.

Asking you to make the time up isn't unreasonable. You work flexi. That means work can dictate some hours to you. E.g. You have a meeting that starts at 9 - that day you shouldn't be starting at 10. You've already intimated you work some hours of over time. You need to be flexiable. When I worked for the NHS I had core hours. They also got to set training time so they worked for the many. And the trainer and the venue.

You've intimated you work up to 60 hours some times. It's sounding as though over the course of the month. You'll have ample opportunities to make some time up. You could even do it that day - by going into the office and doing some desk work after training. How you choose to manage your time is partly up to you - but the name 'flexi' implies you have to demonstrate some Flexibility.

I hope the training is useful.