Training away from the office

Latheofheaven

If we are told to be in Manchester, for example, until 4.30 bit we finish at 4 it is as if we are on call for that last half hour as up until 4pm we had no idea we would be finishing earlier. That half hour is not ours as we could not plan for it or use it effectively. Do you understand?

FBaby

It probably comes across as me being an unreasonable employee

You certainly do and frankly, if you were in my team, you wouldn't last long. The NHS is one of the most flexible employer, and yet you still manage to have people moaning over 1 1/2 of non flexible work and who think they should be paid for not working because for one week, they can't control their own hours. Unbelievable!

How about being grateful that you get flexible working arrangement in the first place? How about seeing it that you might finish early which even if you can't plan anything, means you won't be working. Of course you could plan something in case you finish early, but then you wouldn't be able to moan of course.

Sorry but I have little sympathy for people who want it all one direction only and make such a fuss over so little. Just get on with it and if you have to make up some time, just ask if you can do so over 1 month, doing only 15 minutes at a time. You won't even notice!

sangie595

Latheofheaven wrote: »

You are missing the point. We are told to be in training until 4.30pm. So we make plans around that. I can't, for example, arrange an appointment for that time (or the hour after during travel) as I am expected to be in training. So if they say training is done at 4 that is not my fault. I arranged to be there until 4.30. I can't make use of that half hour. Even if they do give travel time and it makes up the hours, which I have pointed out isn't the case for everyone, I was told to be in training until 4.30.

Unhelpful personal comments are not appreciated. I work hard and, as pointed out, am simply trying to ascertain the rules around this issue because my manager has misinformed me on several occasions.

No. It is you who is missing the point. If you finish earlier, you set off home earlier. You get home earlier. You are not in work earlier. Time does not disappear.

There were no personal comments, helpful or unhelpful. If you are not in work you cannot claim to be. It is rather obvious that if you are in work at any time, then you cannot schedule an appointing for that time. Any day. Whatever your location that day. But I presume that like the rest of us, your life is not a series of back to back appointments? I really fail to see why you expect to get credited with more hours than you work (including travel excess time ); and I am really struggling to see why you think that what another employer does means that you should be treated in the same way. You have kicked up an enormous fuss over two pages here, over something that amounts to how much time - a hour? An hour that you haven't worked but think you are due? I realise that you may have not appreciated the point, but this really does play into the hands of those who will point to things like this as the reason the NHS is in the state it is in, instead of the real reason.

You are obviously in a union. If you are determined that you are right and are entitled to this time, talk to the union and get it sorted out under your terms of employment, as I told you back on page 1. If they've already told you that it can't be done, then you are wasting your time getting us to say something different. We don't employ you. The civil service doesn't employ you. But whilst I don't doubt that you work hard, that is not the way that you are coming across here, and you are doing neither yourself nor your colleagues a service.

custardy

getmore4less wrote: »

You should also get paid for upto the time to travel to the training site from your normal place of work.

Don't forget your mileage claim.

You also have to be insured for business if using your own car.

if not insured you need to get the employer to arrange transport.

Im assuming they are travelling directly to the training location.
So the distance is only relative when it exceeds that of the normal work location.

Latheofheaven

Well hey, obviously I am the bad guy. I mean without me speaking up staff would have been paid single rate rather than time and a half for overtime. And they wouldn't have been paid travel time to which they were entitled. Maybe I am wrong in this but, as I said, I have been given wrong information repeatedly by management so you can hardly blame me for questioning when new rules come in that are to the detriment of my colleagues. I personally don't lose out from this but my colleagues do, hence I am trying to help them out.

You made it personal. But that is your issue, not mine. I only asked for help.

getmore4less

I find it hard to believe you have a job where everything has to be planned appointments eg no add hoc paper work reports etc or other activities that can be planned for the extra time if it happens or just carried over to the next day/after training.

jobbingmusician

sangie595 wrote: »

No. It is you who is missing the point. If you finish earlier, you set off home earlier. You get home earlier. You are not in work earlier. Time does not disappear.

Actually, I don't quite agree with this bit. I do have some sympathy with the OP - if a course is advertised as finishing at 4.30, that is when it should finish and that is the time that should be paid for. If the OP has booked a train to return home which accounts for a 4.30 finish, a 4pm finish simply means that they will simply have half an hour to 'kill'. I think they should be paid for the advertised course time. This is the course that has presumably been commissioned and paid for (and I have plenty of experience of course trainers finishing courses early. Of course, it is their choice and THEY normally gain free time from finishing early, for the same fixed fee...:rotfl:)

k3lvc

sangie595 wrote: »

You are playing right into the hands of the detractors of NHS workers when you act this way.

Indeed the OP is - I'm assuming a non-operational role hence the flextime option in which case they're demonstrating everything that's wrong with the current system. Presumably during the training the workload won't magically disappear hence there should be no difficulty making up the time - unless of course there's a belief as others have said that flextime only works in the employees favour.

God help the OP if he/she ever had to leave the protected/entitled life for the world of industry and value generation

lincroft1710

jobbingmusician wrote: »

Actually, I don't quite agree with this bit. I do have some sympathy with the OP - if a course is advertised as finishing at 4.30, that is when it should finish and that is the time that should be paid for. If the OP has booked a train to return home which accounts for a 4.30 finish, a 4pm finish simply means that they will simply have half an hour to 'kill'. I think they should be paid for the advertised course time. This is the course that has presumably been commissioned and paid for (and I have plenty of experience of course trainers finishing courses early. Of course, it is their choice and THEY normally gain free time from finishing early, for the same fixed fee...:rotfl:)

If the course finishes at 16.00 instead of 16.30 then for those 30 minutes the OP is at leisure and not working, therefore why should they be paid. Obviously if the OP used that half hour to write up reports, cases etc then they should be paid.

Courses are usually timed to fill a specific slot and tend to be overestimated so that the course will finish at least at the expected finish time if not earlier. Usually people who have been told a course will finish at 16.30, will not want to still be there at 16.35 or later, it is common sense. Also the facility may have only been booked until 16.30.

I was a civil servant and on flexi-time and attended many, many courses but unfortunately cannot remember how an early finish was treated.

Latheofheaven

God help the OP if he/she ever had to leave the protected/entitled life for the world of industry and value generation

I have worked in the private sector. I have been self-employed. I have worked in management and specialist positions. I believe that all staff should be afforded the same rights, whatever their position - up to chief executive level. I certainly wouldn't tear down someone's expectations simply because other workers have fewer rights. It would be better that all workers had the same rights, in both the public and private sector, rather than seeking the lowest level and declaring it the norm and anything above it spoiled.