the snap general election thread

Cakeguts

ThinkingOutLoud wrote: »

Have you ever noticed how academic prowess is often paired with a lack of practical skills?
Your analysis suggests you haven't worked in a medical environment OR actually understood that people are not excluded from applying where they can demonstrate ability, dedication and aptitude for their intended career. They aren't chosen specifically because of limited academic qualifications / with no other merit.

I am no careers advisor and I suggest you don't apply for such a job either.

I don't think this is quite correct after all doctors and surgeons have to have the highest academic qualifications.

ThinkingOutLoud_2

Cakeguts wrote: »

I don't think this is quite correct after all doctors and surgeons have to have the highest academic qualifications.

Er, again you will see some universities have adjusted their approach to train doctors who may have other skills other than pure grades.

Academic prowess is not mutually exclusive of practical capability. Nor is it the guarantee of that or many other skills required.

Why do Oxford and Cambridge place so much emphasis on their process aside pure grades?

Cakeguts

ThinkingOutLoud wrote: »

Er, again you will see some universities have adjusted their approach to train doctors who may have other skills other than pure grades.

Academic prowess is not mutually exclusive of practical capability. Nor is it the guarantee of that or many other skills required.

Why do Oxford and Cambridge place so much emphasis on their process aside pure grades?

The problem is that the course that I am talking about is at a university that people go to if they can't get into anywhere else so anyone with a degree in nursing will have gone there because no other university will offer them a place. There are several universities like that offering nursing courses but there are also very good universities offerng nursing courses. I don't think that most people would want one of their relatives to be at risk from being nursed in hospital or anywhere by someone who couldn't complete a normal nursing degree because it would be too difficult. A levels are really really easy these days so if you can't get 3 As you really can't manage a difficult nursing course so you must be doing some sort of glorified health care certificate called a degree but about the same standard as a health care assistant qualfication that could be done through an apprenticeship. So why not just do all of these level of courses as apprenticeships and call them what they are health care qualifications.

I just hope that people who do nursing at universities that take people who can't get into anything better are not able to be promoted above entry level jobs. They need to be somewhere where they can't do any harm. But then that is no better than what someone does on a health apprenticeship.

I would have thought that the NHS would have been wanting to employ quality nursing staff not people who went to a dud university because they couldn't get into anywhere else? It doesn't exactly raise the status of nursing. School students will know that their less able classmates have gone into nursing so you will eventually get a situation where nursing is considered a job that is only suitable for non academic unintelligent people. I don't think we really want most of our nurses to be people who can't get a better job in anything else because they aren't bright enough do we?

Did a bit of research and discovered thank goodness that most of them won't get nursing jobs. Huge relief. I can now stop worrying about this.

GreatApe

Cakeguts wrote: »

The problem is that the course that I am talking about is at a university that people go to if they can't get into anywhere else so anyone with a degree in nursing will have gone there because no other university will offer them a place. There are several universities like that offering nursing courses but there are also very good universities offerng nursing courses. I don't think that most people would want one of their relatives to be at risk from being nursed in hospital or anywhere by someone who couldn't complete a normal nursing degree because it would be too difficult. A levels are really really easy these days so if you can't get 3 As you really can't manage a difficult nursing course so you must be doing some sort of glorified health care certificate called a degree but about the same standard as a health care assistant qualfication that could be done through an apprenticeship. So why not just do all of these level of courses as apprenticeships and call them what they are health care qualifications.

I just hope that people who do nursing at universities that take people who can't get into anything better are not able to be promoted above entry level jobs. They need to be somewhere where they can't do any harm. But then that is no better than what someone does on a health apprenticeship.

I would have thought that the NHS would have been wanting to employ quality nursing staff not people who went to a dud university because they couldn't get into anywhere else? It doesn't exactly raise the status of nursing. School students will know that their less able classmates have gone into nursing so you will eventually get a situation where nursing is considered a job that is only suitable for non academic unintelligent people. I don't think we really want most of our nurses to be people who can't get a better job in anything else because they aren't bright enough do we?

Did a bit of research and discovered thank goodness that most of them won't get nursing jobs. Huge relief. I can now stop worrying about this.

why do you care so much if the nurse looking after you failed their a-levels and only got into a !!!! university? As far as I am concerned I am happy for the NHS to hire people who failed their GCSEs. Once the people are in place if they can do their tasks to an acceptable level then fine if not then fire them

The average person only has an IQ of 100
Some positions and jobs will have to go to people who are dim and low IQ
The NHS is a huge employer, directly and indirectly employing about 8% of the uk workforce which works out to 2.5 million workers. There is no realistic way you could only take in bright people into the NHS its too large an organisation and the price premium wouldn't be worth it plus you would be depriving the other parts of the economy of the more capable people.

I am happy with dim nurses so long as they can do the assigned tasks.
For many of them there shouldn't even be a need for formal qualifications. Just on the job training and assessment.

GreatApe

ThinkingOutLoud wrote: »

Why do Oxford and Cambridge place so much emphasis on their process aside pure grades?

to weed out the crazies which dont show up in the A-level scores

chucknorris

GreatApe wrote: »

why do you care so much if the nurse looking after you failed their a-levels and only got into a !!!! university? As far as I am concerned I am happy for the NHS to hire people who failed their GCSEs. Once the people are in place if they can do their tasks to an acceptable level then fine if not then fire them

The average person only has an IQ of 100
Some positions and jobs will have to go to people who are dim and low IQ
The NHS is a huge employer, directly and indirectly employing about 8% of the uk workforce which works out to 2.5 million workers. There is no realistic way you could only take in bright people into the NHS its too large an organisation and the price premium wouldn't be worth it plus you would be depriving the other parts of the economy of the more capable people.

I am happy with dim nurses so long as they can do the assigned tasks.
For many of them there shouldn't even be a need for formal qualifications. Just on the job training and assessment.

I didn't really mature until I was approaching my mid 20's, I just didn't apply myself at school. But at 24 I realised that I wasn't where I wanted to be in life (it wasn't quite that bad, I was an electrician, but I knew that I had not achieved what I could have done. So I got back into education (although 'back' suggests that I engaged in the first place, which I didn't). I didn't leave school with very good qualifications, a CSE 1 in maths and an O level in physics (can't remember what grade) and some other average CSE's. But I was the top student every year of my degree, and won an award as top student in the final year, and I got a first, the first one that they had awarded in my course for 4 years, they were very careful about giving firsts. The difference was that I was actually applying myself during my degree course. So I think that you need to look beyond school qualifications when judging adults, I certainly do.

I often wonder what it would have taken to change my attitude at school, in fact, I was on a camping trip last weekend and two fathers were talking about how they were unable to motivate their 15 year old sons to work harder at school. We didn't really come to any conclusions, maybe there isn't an answer, and you have to just wait until people recognise that they are underachieving themselves. I strongly suspect though, that if I had worked harder at school, I probably wouldn't be where I am today, so it worked out well for me in the end.

ThinkingOutLoud_2

GreatApe wrote: »

to weed out the crazies which dont show up in the A-level scores

Er no. To select people with the potential and the "character" to benefit most from what they offer - even they recognise it is not just about GCSE scores.

ThinkingOutLoud_2

Cakeguts wrote: »

The problem is that the course that I am talking about is at a university that people go to if they can't get into anywhere else so anyone with a degree in nursing will have gone there because no other university will offer them a place. There are several universities like that offering nursing courses but there are also very good universities offerng nursing courses. I don't think that most people would want one of their relatives to be at risk from being nursed in hospital or anywhere by someone who couldn't complete a normal nursing degree because it would be too difficult. A levels are really really easy these days so if you can't get 3 As you really can't manage a difficult nursing course so you must be doing some sort of glorified health care certificate called a degree but about the same standard as a health care assistant qualfication that could be done through an apprenticeship. So why not just do all of these level of courses as apprenticeships and call them what they are health care qualifications.

I just hope that people who do nursing at universities that take people who can't get into anything better are not able to be promoted above entry level jobs. They need to be somewhere where they can't do any harm. But then that is no better than what someone does on a health apprenticeship.

I would have thought that the NHS would have been wanting to employ quality nursing staff not people who went to a dud university because they couldn't get into anywhere else? It doesn't exactly raise the status of nursing. School students will know that their less able classmates have gone into nursing so you will eventually get a situation where nursing is considered a job that is only suitable for non academic unintelligent people. I don't think we really want most of our nurses to be people who can't get a better job in anything else because they aren't bright enough do we?

Did a bit of research and discovered thank goodness that most of them won't get nursing jobs. Huge relief. I can now stop worrying about this.

Wow. That is a whole heap of IMHO flawed bias which I can see strongly form your viewpoint.

- What University / course are you talking about?
- Where is your proof it is easy to get 3 A levels?
- Google to read about some people who didn't do well at school, but went on to great things?

Exactly proven by your last quote - there is a big difference between giving some people an opportunity and handing out a nursing qualification.

Cakeguts

There are also people who didn't do well at school and who didn't go on to do great things. If I was ill I would prefer not to be nursed by one of the ones who didn't go on to do great things.

However it is all sorted out now because I discovered that the NHS are very choosy about who they offer jobs to so if you do a course at one of the worst universities in the country you are unlikely to get a job in nursing. Which means that you are unlikely to be in the position where lack of speed of processing new information might kill someone.

ThinkingOutLoud_2

Cakeguts wrote: »

There are also people who didn't do well at school and who didn't go on to do great things. If I was ill I would prefer not to be nursed by one of the ones who didn't go on to do great things.

However it is all sorted out now because I discovered that the NHS are very choosy about who they offer jobs to so if you do a course at one of the worst universities in the country you are unlikely to get a job in nursing. Which means that you are unlikely to be in the position where lack of speed of processing new information might kill someone.

Exactly. Not everyone can be a nurse. Not everyone who is academically bright nor those who are not. Not rocket science really ...

It remains true that when a doctor says get an IV line in you fast that A in maths won't make a shred of difference. Nor when you need a some comfort if suffering from a serious illness. Care is thought not often about pure speed.

So can I assume you now withdraw your objection to a nurse earning £21k you cite too?