the snap general election thread

GreatApe

hallmark wrote: »

I must admit I'm amazed that the advice is to stay inside during a fire. Almost literally unbelievable. I've worked in many office buildings & the advice is always to exit immediately if there's any kind of fire.

I actually lived in a tower block in east london for years & years. I don't remember that being the advice at the time although I don't remember there being any advice at all back then. The main safety issue we were repeatedly reminded of was not to use gas (which was outlawed in our buiilding) because of Ronan Point.

There would be little choice after a certain point. If the smoke in the stairways gets too strong then unless you can hold your breath all the way down you would suffocate before you made it out. Most deaths in most fires are due to smoke no heat.

Maybe the advise should be changed following this to evacuate asap. But then again you run the risk of people being harmed or killed due to the smoke in evacuation while they may have been perfectly safe staying put assuming a much more confined fire. So while its easy in hindsight its not so easy beforehand to know what the best course would be.

hallmark

GreatApe wrote: »

There would be little choice after a certain point. If the smoke in the stairways gets too strong then unless you can hold your breath all the way down you would suffocate before you made it out. Most deaths in most fires are due to smoke no heat.

Maybe the advise should be changed following this to evacuate asap. But then again you run the risk of people being harmed or killed due to the smoke in evacuation while they may have been perfectly safe staying put assuming a much more confined fire. So while its easy in hindsight its not so easy beforehand to know what the best course would be.

Yeah I agree, not saying it's easy as such, it just seems like overwhelming common-sense to prioritize getting out of a burning building. As you say smoke would be a big hazard.

Having lived in a tower block for as long as I did I think they're hideous & should all be knocked down as soon as possible. However there's no chance of that happening & in fact the trend seems to be to build new apartment blocks, at least in the part of London where I work.

sevenhills

hallmark wrote: »

Having lived in a tower block for as long as I did I think they're hideous & should all be knocked down as soon as possible. However there's no chance of that happening & in fact the trend seems to be to build new apartment blocks, at least in the part of London where I work.

If I lived in a tower block, I would buy a strong rope and have it in a safe place, it would be like buying a life jacket when sailing.

Out,_Vile_Jelly

Heard someone on the radio this morning who is head of a management company looking after similar tower blocks. They said sprinklers are not simply a matter of cost; in many older buildings it's physically near-impossible to retrospectively fit the necessary pipework without massive disruption to the residents (ie they have to move out while the structure is completely rebuilt). Similar perhaps to the difficulty in fitting aircon in the older Tube lines- there isn't phsyically the room.

Ideally nobody should be living in these older tower blocks. But how is it logistically possible to re-house so many people within the same borough?

Moby

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/cuts-fire-service-putting-lives-at-risk 'Since 2010, more than 10,000 firefighters have been axed, dozens of fire stations have closed, fire engines have been scrapped and levels of emergency rescue equipment has been slashed. In London, 10 fire stations have been closed, 27 fire engines axed and more than 600 firefighter posts have been cut. Every year response times are increasing and 2015-2016 saw a 15% rise in fire deaths compared with the year before.'

Out,_Vile_Jelly

Moby wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/cuts-fire-service-putting-lives-at-risk 'Since 2010, more than 10,000 firefighters have been axed, dozens of fire stations have closed, fire engines have been scrapped and levels of emergency rescue equipment has been slashed. In London, 10 fire stations have been closed, 27 fire engines axed and more than 600 firefighter posts have been cut. Every year response times are increasing and 2015-2016 saw a 15% rise in fire deaths compared with the year before.'

Is there any suggestion that the fire brigade's response to this incident was diminished by cuts? As I understand it, they were there within minutes of the call but were hampered by limited access to the area, inc the inevitable parked cars narrowing the roads.

hallmark

Moby wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/cuts-fire-service-putting-lives-at-risk 'Since 2010, more than 10,000 firefighters have been axed, dozens of fire stations have closed, fire engines have been scrapped and levels of emergency rescue equipment has been slashed. In London, 10 fire stations have been closed, 27 fire engines axed and more than 600 firefighter posts have been cut. Every year response times are increasing and 2015-2016 saw a 15% rise in fire deaths compared with the year before.'

Since 2010. The point when Labour had destroyed the economy.

Those cuts are directly relateable to that.

Also these articles are meaningless when they do not suggest what should have been cut instead. Police? NHS? Education? Any of a million other things?

Labour bankrupt the economy, then protest every cut that's forced upon the next Govt. Then retrospectively use every tragedy to attack the successor Govt.

Moby

Out,_Vile_Jelly wrote: »

Is there any suggestion that the fire brigade's response to this incident was diminished by cuts? As I understand it, they were there within minutes of the call but were hampered by limited access to the area, inc the inevitable parked cars narrowing the roads.

It's not the response time in this case but the fact that firefighters were forced to work 12 hour shifts without rest because of the reduction in cover. 'As this unprecedented incident progressed, the strain on resources will have begun to take its toll. Fire cover around London will have been reduced, leaving no other option but to seek assistance from neighbouring brigades. Firefighters, working in arduous conditions, will have had no choice but to work in Grenfell Tower for 12 hours or more, with no chance of being relieved by a fresh firefighting crew. The mental and physical strain of this is exhausting enough, but the emotional strain that this incident will have placed on firefighters is unbelievably difficult, and the mental scars will last a lifetime.'

GreatApe

One healthy fit man says he managed to go from the 14th floor to the 4th floor before he collapsed from the smoke but fortunately a fire fighter was able to save him from that point onward. Apparently it was so thick he could barely see and breath and fell down multiple times tripping over objects and other people.

It looks like the elevator saved some people but it stopped on more floors than necessary probably due to a lot of people trying to call for it.

Horrific situation

Moby

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/experts-warned-government-against-cladding-material-used-on-grenfell One architect, who has used similar systems, said cladding panels are also available with mineral wool insulation, which are less flammable but more expensive. “I only use the mineral wool ones because your gut tells you it is not right to wrap a building in plastic,” he told the Guardian. As far back as 2000, Gordon Cooke – a leading fire safety consultant – warned in a report commissioned by the mineral wool industry “the use of plastic foam cored sandwich panels ... is difficult to justify when considering life safety”. He said the panels “can contribute to the severity and speed of fire development” and said this has led to “massive fire loses” in the past.