the snap general election thread

posh*spice

Don't forget - Labour wants to get rid of the Prevent strategy too

steampowered

I think that attempts on both sides to blame the other political party for the terrorist attacks are pretty distasteful.

The reality is that these terror attacks probably wouldn't have been stopped no matter what decisions had been made. You can't stop all terror attacks all the time.

I don't agree with the Tories' decision to cut police numbers - and it is right that this gets revisited - but I don't think it is fair to try and link that with the recent terror attacks.

Similarly the attempts to criticise Corbyn over his comments on shoot-to-kill are nonsense. Obviously the police will shoot people if they are a threat to public safety. But the suggestion that the police should shoot to kill terror suspects (meaning that they can't be questioned) even if the immediate risk has been dealt with is patent nonsense.

When you start putting political games above evidence based policy, you end up with bad policy. You end up politicians refusing to change things like the Prevent strategy and control orders, which the evidence suggests aren't working, for fear of political fall-out.

mrginge

steampowered wrote: »

When you start putting political games above evidence based policy, you end up with bad policy. You end up politicians refusing to change things like the Prevent strategy and control orders, which the evidence suggests aren't working, for fear of political fall-out.

I agree absolutely that we should use evidence to determine whether a particular policy is appropriate. Grandstanding on populist platforms like simply promising more police on the beat needs to be questioned to determine the actual benefit.

I don't agree with the Tories' decision to cut police numbers - and it is right that this gets revisited...

Over to you...

IveSeenTheLight

posh*spice wrote: »

We're under attack because ISIS has decided the UK is it's next target.

And we've 3000 loonies running amok willing to do their bidding because we've been tolerating this !!!! for too long

So under a Conservative government, with this heightened awareness, we've chosen to slash our spending on public services and cut police officers by circa 20,000

Former Met officer says government lying about police numbers

Since Theresa May became home secretary in 2010 total police numbers in England and Wales have fallen by 46,700 or 19.5%

In the face of increased risk and terrorism around the world and predominantly as home secretary, our Prime Minister has reduced the police force.

That's the type of leadership she represents, weak on security, wobbly on defence

BobQ

CKhalvashi wrote: »

Likely as a result of their care pledge and subsequent u-turn. That is one policy of a few that there is little support for in my experience. There is a lot of discontent among a number of Conservative voters of all ages. I haven't necessarily agreed with all policies however after the last 18-ish months, I'm unlikely to ever vote Conservative again in my lifetime. How many others feel this strongly I don't know, however I'd suggest it's a fair few.

Of course, there are defections back from UKIP to Conservatives to consider, however on the whole also, the Labour vote has held up better in reality than many polls were saying at the time of by-elections, too.

Just a reminder, as I don't know if you've seen me post this before; I live on the wealthier side of my constituency, which is one dependent on the single market both through commuting city workers and an international airport where a foreign airline is the biggest customer (so the single market indirectly provides work for a large proportion of my local social circle). I don't know if that has skewed what I'm seeing at all, however likely not.

My neighbour has always voted Tory as I recall and usually displays a poster for the candidate. I noticed last week that the sign he had originally displayed was "missing". Today he confessed that the reason was that he was going to vote Lib Dem in protest of the social care policy.

michaels

Based on the anecdotes of the Labour canvassers and supporters on here I am predicting a 200+ seat Labour majority as in most areas it appears that their are only ex Tory voters.

ThinkingOutLoud_2

gfplux wrote: »

If you are responsible for getting rid of 20,000 police since 2010 including 1,300 firearms officers she must be having trouble sleeping at night.

Er, so who are you suggesting we vote for.

Andy Burnham agreed from the opposition front bench that cuts of around 10% were appropriate. That was therefore agreeing to 14,400 of the 20k cited. Not sure having a hire and fire mentality is any smarter?

Training and hiring the right kinds of security forces for the right kind of events seems as important - the people in charge claim they are doing that and I don't have any reason to doubt them.

IveSeenTheLight

posh*spice wrote: »

Crime has fallen under TM

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Ah but nowadays thanks to forums such as these you can't let a little thing like fact get in the way of propaganda.
Haven't you noticed?

Yes, lets consider the facts

Violent crime rising in England and Wales, police figures show

There have been “small but genuine” increases in murder and other violent crimes, including 13-14% increases in gun and knife crime in 2016, according to the latest police-recorded crime figures.

The Office for National Statistics said the police data showed a 9% rise in overall crime in 2016, but that had to be viewed alongside the more authoritative crime survey of England and Wales, which showed an apparent 5% fall over the same period. These figures do, however, show an increase in violent crime, with a 10% rise in robberies, a 35% increase in public order offences and a 12% rise in sexual offences, including rapes.

The English and Welsh police figures include an apparently alarming 21% rise in the number of murders, up 121 to 697, but the figures include 96 cases of manslaughter at Hillsborough in 1989. Once those are excluded the increase is much lower, at 4%.

The police data also shows a 19% rise in offences involving violence against the person, but the statisticians say 40% of the increase is accounted for by the inclusion of certain types of harassment offences for the first time.

Both surveys showed continuing large declines in domestic burglary (down 7%), car theft (9%) and bicycle thefts (10%).

The ONS says the police figures show “small but genuine increases in some types of high-harm but small-volume violent crime”. They include a 13% increase in gun crime to 5,864 incidents, driven by greater criminal use of handguns and shotguns. These figures are confirmed by ambulance response records.

The police figures also show a similar 14% rise in knife crime, with improvements in police-recording practices contributing to the increase.

“There were also small increases in some offences where recording practices are less likely to have been a driving factor,” the ONS said. “For example, it is likely that recent rises in burglary and robbery reflect some genuine increases in crime. However, these recent increases should be seen in the context of substantial falls in such crime over the longer-term.”

The crime survey of England and Wales, based on the public’s experiences, estimated there were 6.1m offences in 2016 – a fall of 5% from the previous year.

There were a further 11.5m offences of fraud, online crime and computer misuses in 2016, which experimental statistics suggest is rising.

“The police recorded a total of 4.8m offences in the year ending December 2016, an annual rise of 9%. However, the large volume increases driving this trend are thought to reflect changes in recording processes and practices rather than crime,” the statisticians said.

There's a lot more reds and than greens there, so depends which statistic you want to use to manipulate your view.

It does not appear in this context that we are living in a safer society under this Conservative government

ThinkingOutLoud_2

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

...

Since Theresa May became home secretary in 2010 total police numbers in England and Wales have fallen by 46,700 or 19.5%

Diane Abbott working for you or are you just plain dishonest or careless?

The reduction state in the article you link to is NOT 46,000

Since Theresa May became home secretary in 2010 the number of police officers has fallen by 21,500

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/05/theresa-may-police-cuts-margaret-thatcher-budgets

IveSeenTheLight

ThinkingOutLoud wrote: »

Diane Abbott working for you or are you just plain dishonest or careless?

The reduction state in the article you link to is NOT 46,000

Since Theresa May became home secretary in 2010 the number of police officers has fallen by 21,500

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/05/theresa-may-police-cuts-margaret-thatcher-budgets

Also taken from the Guardian 3 hours ago

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/05/karen-bradley-police-cuts-armed-officers-bbc-today-programme-london-bridge-attack

Since Theresa May became home secretary in 2010 total police numbers in England and Wales have fallen by 46,700 or 19.5%