Electric cars

almillar

My Renault Zoe had a water pump. It also had an alternator, air conditioning pump, windows, handles, locks, buttons, steering, suspension, brakes, etc, etc. Plenty of moving parts on it, thanks very much.

It didn't have an alternator (spinning thing that charges the 12V battery) - the 12v battery is charged directly from the 'traction battery'.
The general point, which stands, is that electric cars have fewer moving parts than petrol/diesel, manual/automatic cars.

...and let's not forget that the brakes on an EV are more complex, because of regeneration

The brakes aren't - disks and/or drums, but there'll be a control system in there.

The suspension is heavier-duty, because of the battery weight, than an equivalent

Yes - the Zoe, for example, a Clio sized car, has Megane derived suspension.

Martyn1981

oldagetraveller wrote: »

Watch and weep video for the Tesla/EV brainwashed.:rotfl:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns_0UTOc6X4

Hiya, I watched that a few days ago, as I recall he calculated the cost of buying a Tesla S (or X) to replace every car in Australia, then compared the CO2 savings to spending the same amount Aus$1tn (if memory serves) on PV or such like.

I was left rather gobsmacked at the appalling logic he was using. For starters it's not a competition, we need to reduce transport emissions and leccy generation emissions.

But more importantly he was suggesting the $1tn for the cars was an additional cost, but it's not, it's simply ICE car money being spent on EV cars instead as the future unfolds, so his whole premise was wrong, it's shifting spending not additional spending.

[Yes EV's have a higher capital cost than ICE, but when fuel and running costs are considered, they are cheaper.]

I almost stopped watching when he choose the most expensive Tesla's instead of the new Model 3 (almost 1/3 of the price), as it became clear that he was trying to hide tricks within his explanation, a dead giveaway for spin.


He's previously done a similar video on the Tesla semi truck, and it was fun to watch a Tesla owner and truck driver from the US rip it to pieces, explaining the huge list of errors and false assumptions.

My favourite there was his delight in pointing out that Australia is very large (unlike the US?) and that charging would be needed along the highways (like Tesla build?) and that these would need powering (like Tesla plan to do with PV, which they also sell), and then batteries would be needed (which Tesla produce and sell).

Perhaps he didn't bother to follow the truck launch and the Tesla plans to deploy Mega-chargers powered from PV farms and Tesla Powerpacks at a guaranteed price of 7c/kWh. It's also strange that someone who appears to be a big fan of PV, doesn't realise that Australia has both great generation and huge open spaces ....... along the highways!


Please don't be taken in by these spin merchants. His constant shouting, abuse of Tesla fans, and appalling language should be a give away that he only has half an argument, and will never listen to, nor absorb the 50% he is lacking for any coherent consideration.

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

I almost stopped watching when he choose the most expensive Tesla's instead of the new Model 3 (almost 1/3 of the price)

Maybe he was simply going for cars that are actually being delivered...?

He's previously done a similar video on the Tesla semi truck

Wake me if and when it ever exists.

Perhaps he didn't bother to follow the truck launch

There's a big difference between vapourware announcements and actual "delivery is now happening" launches - as the people who put deposits on Model 3s are well aware.

Oh, and have you actually ever been to rural Australia...?

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Maybe he was simply going for cars that are actually being delivered...?

Model 3's are now being delivered, or didn't you know that?

AdrianC wrote: »

Wake me if and when it ever exists.

Are you saying it won't exist, isn't being developed, doesn't already have about 2,000 pre-orders? Can you post anything to support your wild claims?

AdrianC wrote: »

There's a big difference between vapourware announcements and actual "delivery is now happening" launches - as the people who put deposits on Model 3s are well aware.

People said that about cheap on-shore wind, then about cheap PV, then about cheap off-shore wind, now about cheap storage and EV's ...... will they ever learn, will they ever admit they were wrong ...... or will they just move on to the next thing that 'they' pretend won't/can't happen?

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Model 3's are now being delivered, or didn't you know that?

Well, they've put the semi-mainstream production target back from this month to March, declining to speculate on full-scale production - and a grand total of 700-odd cars had been assembled to the end of November instead of the original estimate of 100,000 by the end of 2017.

Are you saying it won't exist, isn't being developed, doesn't already have about 2,000 pre-orders? Can you post anything to support your wild claims?

Considering it was only unveiled a month ago, with production estimates of "2019", I'm certainly not holding my breath.

Any orders at this stage will be large fleets looking for test units, with a side helping of "publicity stunt". The showstopper is going to be the battery weight for a usable range, and how badly that hits the payload.

People said that about cheap on-shore wind, then about cheap PV, then about cheap off-shore wind, now about cheap storage and EV's ...... will they ever learn, will they ever admit they were wrong ...... or will they just move on to the next thing that 'they' pretend won't/can't happen?

There's a difference between the concept happening (although it's worth remembering that as I write this, we're currently at about 17% wind, on- and off-shore, and that's pretty much peak, with just under 43% CCGT) - and swallowing Elon's kool-aid wholesale.

There's really nothing THAT innovative about Tesla's cars. They're just designed from the ground up as EVs, so can package really, really big batteries even though they're using utterly generic cells. Nobody else is really doing that, not least because of the weight (the Model S battery is about 600kg - about 3/4 of an entire Pug 107 - which is one reason why the whole car is half a ton heavier than a Jag XJ or 7-series), but also because the rest of the industry simply don't just lob a platform together in ten minutes as Tesla did with their first structural design (remember, the Roadster was an electric Elise). Most of the industry is partnering to share platforms, because they're so expensive that VAG issued profit warnings because of the dev costs of the MQB platform - so what's so special about somebody without the domain knowledge...?

Then there's the wisdom of having something so potentially explosively flammable as LiIon cells taking up quite so much of the structure in the event of an impact - there have already been at least two massive fires as a result of Model S crashes, one in Austria, one in NL.

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Well, they've put the semi-mainstream production target back from this month to March, declining to speculate on full-scale production - and a grand total of 700-odd cars had been assembled to the end of November instead of the original estimate of 100,000 by the end of 2017.

I thought you said they weren't being delivered, have you changed your mind?

AdrianC wrote: »

Considering it was only unveiled a month ago, with production estimates of "2019", I'm certainly not holding my breath.

Not holding your breath, what does that mean, seems rather vague. Are you saying it won't be built or not? You are allowed to make 'real' statements, rather than unclear comments that can been taken back later!

AdrianC wrote: »

Any orders at this stage will be large fleets looking for test units, with a side helping of "publicity stunt". The showstopper is going to be the battery weight for a usable range, and how badly that hits the payload.

Of course the pre-orders are from large fleets wanting to test them out!

Again, if you care to check your claims, you'll find that only about 10% of US trucks run at max or near max weight, most are limited by space, so this isn't an issue.

Here is the advice I was given recently when researching the issue:

The data regarding truck weight is collected by the States and consolidated by the FHWA using a technology called weigh in motion. The last time I looked, about 3 years ago, less than 10% of the trucks (class 8-13) were running near, at or above 80K pounds.

Also, it's not 'just the battery weight' you also have to factor in weight savings. The 4 electric motors will weigh similar to the trucks transmission so that'll net off.

So we have around 6,000lb - 10,000lb for the battery packs (600kWh or 1MWh) v's the 3,000lb engine weight, about another 1,000lb for the intake, cooling and exhaust systems, and 1,000 to 3,000lbs for the diesel tanks and diesel fuel. So closer than you might have realised. Also worth considering that the companies ordering these trucks will have additional specs available to them.

In the US just the fuel cost savings alone of approx $25k pa, will pay back the higher cost of the trucks in 2-3yrs (6 miles per gall @ $3/gall v's 12kWh's at 7c/kWh) In the UK/EU it will be even faster as diesel is about twice the cost here.

[Apologies for the use of imperial units, but most info is coming from the US at the moment.]

AdrianC wrote: »

There's a difference between the concept happening (although it's worth remembering that as I write this, we're currently at about 17% wind, on- and off-shore, and that's pretty much peak, with just under 43% CCGT)

Not true whatsoever, Gridwatch is showing about 7GW for wind, it has been nearer 10GW, with total wind generation (demand side too) over 11GW.

Not true - not peak, as we've barely started to roll out wind power. UK waters alone could provide 1,200GW-9,100GW of generation v's the approx 40GW we currently use.

AdrianC wrote: »

and swallowing Elon's kool-aid wholesale.

And reality will always prove your negativity and denial wrong as RE and EV's will continue to roll out at ever greater volumes and ever lower costs.

AdrianC wrote: »

There's really nothing THAT innovative about Tesla's cars. They're just designed from the ground up as EVs, so can package really, really big batteries even though they're using utterly generic cells. Nobody else is really doing that, not least because of the weight (the Model S battery is about 600kg - about 3/4 of an entire Pug 107 - which is one reason why the whole car is half a ton heavier than a Jag XJ or 7-series), but also because the rest of the industry simply don't just lob a platform together in ten minutes as Tesla did with their first structural design (remember, the Roadster was an electric Elise). Most of the industry is partnering to share platforms, because they're so expensive that VAG issued profit warnings because of the dev costs of the MQB platform - so what's so special about somebody without the domain knowledge...?

And yet Tesla keep delivering and are miles ahead of the competition who keep delivering concept cars but little else. Even Nissan (Leaf) and GM (Bolt) only have one model.

Remember, Elon/Tesla's plan was never to 'rule' the EV market, it was only to make EV's S3XY (Y model due soon) and stimulate the market.

With regard to batteries, they seem to be doing quite well, certainly ahead of the competition in price and power/weight. The 200kWh Roadster2 also suggests another battery advance, perhaps solid state.

AdrianC wrote: »

Then there's the wisdom of having something so potentially explosively flammable as LiIon cells taking up quite so much of the structure in the event of an impact - there have already been at least two massive fires as a result of Model S crashes, one in Austria, one in NL.

EV's are far less likely to burn than petrol and diesel cars after a crash, but I suspect you already knew this.


To sum up, it seems that you just like to throw out unsupported negatives. When Tesla ramps up to 5,000 model 3's per week in 2018 qtr 1, will you then admit that the cars are being delivered, or continue to deny reality?

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

To sum up, it seems that you just like to throw out unsupported negatives. When Tesla ramps up to 5,000 model 3's per week in 2018 qtr 1

Yes, as I said...

AdrianC wrote:

Well, they've put the semi-mainstream production target back from this month to March, declining to speculate on full-scale production

Three months late... Assuming they don't slip further.

Any guesses as to when full-scale will be happening? Go on, be brave...

Even at that full-scale 10k/week, it'll take a year to cover the initial pre-orders. Assuming all those fanbois are standing by their deposits. So when will one be available in a normal lead time for a new customer?

Martyn1981 wrote:

will you then admit that the cars are being delivered, or continue to deny reality?

Absolutely I will. When they start delivering, I'll cheerfully admit they're being delivered. And I'd hope you'll similarly cheerfully admit that there have been massive delays in those deliveries.

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Y
Absolutely I will. When they start delivering, I'll cheerfully admit they're being delivered.

Ah, so you are back to denying that they are being delivered again. Please make up your mind.

AdrianC

They had built 700 cars TOTAL up to the end of last month. The intent was 10,000 to the end of the year. Half-scale production (5,000/wk) has been put back three months. Half a million deposits were placed.

If you want to call that "delivery", then I admire your unbounded optimism. I find your utter lack of awareness of basic production logistics less admirable.

Gloomendoom

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Hiya, I watched that a few days ago, as I recall he calculated the cost of buying a Tesla S (or X) to replace every car in Australia, then compared the CO2 savings to spending the same amount Aus$1tn (if memory serves) on PV or such like.

I've been in Australia for nearly a month now and haven't seen a single electric car. I have seen one recharging point, so they must exist. Somewhere.

Petrol is king here. Cheap too at about half the UK price per litre.