Electric cars

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

They didn't.

60kW petrol engine output is not the same as 60kW electricity output from a generator. To drive that 40kW generator, there's a 3.4 litre turbodiesel inside that big box.

In case you are interested, the new London Taxi cab has a 1.3lt 3 cylinder range extender (generator that charges the battery, doesn't power the wheels) on board. That seems to fit fine.

And the near 9 tonne Workhorse stepvan uses a 647cc two cylinder range extender. The same is used in their pick up truck.

Will we see range extender trailers - probably not, instead you could hire a longer range EV, a hybrid, a range extender, or even a full petrol vehicle. But the theory looks sound for a small aerodynamic trailer, unlike your 3,500kg argument.

Martyn1981

Gloomendoom wrote: »

There may be half the number of parts in an EV but very few of the other half that you will find in an ICEV would be checked at a service anyway.

Hiya, the issue I believe is that the number of moving parts is massively reduced (about 20 v's 2,000) so far less points of failure, and lower maintenance costs.

Electric vehicles will soon be cheaper than regular cars because maintenance costs are lower, says Tony Seba

Tony Seba (mentioned in article) has talked about EV drivetrains being good for 500,000 miles soon (possibly already in the latest Tesla's) v's approx 140,000 miles for a petrol ICE.

oldagetraveller

Watch and weep video for the Tesla/EV brainwashed.:rotfl:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns_0UTOc6X4

IanMSpencer

I'm interested in the full life cycle of the batteries.

They depend on rare earth minerals don't they? So there is a clue in the name there for scaling up - and the long term costs. Until someone can devise a practical low environmental impact battery using relatively abundant materials, we are in the "free nuclear electricity" phase of our understanding of going electric.

How recoverable are the materials in the battery, can they be regenerated and re-manufactured, or are we just creating a massive landfill issue 10 years down the line.

If I had an electric car for the way we use our cars, as long as I have access to another car for about 10 journeys a year (so hire would be a pragmatic solution) I could do all the other journeys from home I do on a 200 mile range with room to spare so I am really tempted, but I'm struggling to understand what the real costs of the thing are both individually and to the environment.

AnotherJoe

IanMSpencer wrote: »

I'm interested in the full life cycle of the batteries.

They depend on rare earth minerals don't they?

No. You are thinking of the motors, some of which do currently use them. Tesla's dont for example. Rare earth minerals, despite their name, arent especially rare anyway its just that since there hasnt until recently been much requirement for them no ones been incented to dig them up.

IanMSpencer wrote: »

Until someone can devise a practical low environmental impact battery using relatively abundant materials, we are in the "free nuclear electricity" phase of our understanding of going electric.

All the components of a battery use readily abundant materials. Even lithium which is by far the rarest is again only constrained by relatively low demand until recently.

IanMSpencer wrote: »

How recoverable are the materials in the battery, can they be regenerated and re-manufactured, or are we just creating a massive landfill issue 10 years down the line.

Currently its looking as if;
Years 0-10 will work in car (most manufacturers are now guaranteeing their batteries from 7-10 years)
Years 10-20 will work as repurposed for home/other storage (alreadhappening)
Years 20+ recycle if people still are using lithium batteries

IanMSpencer wrote: »

If I had an electric car for the way we use our cars, as long as I have access to another car for about 10 journeys a year (so hire would be a pragmatic solution) I could do all the other journeys from home I do on a 200 mile range with room to spare so I am really tempted, but I'm struggling to understand what the real costs of the thing are both individually and to the environment.

What is the cost to the environment of all those trips you are currently doing on fossil fuel, plus all the spares you'll consume such as various coolant liquids, oil, spark plugs, water pumps, etc? As the UK grid switches off coal to a mixture of NG, wind and solar, an electric car will increasing have a way lower footprint in terms of energy consumption, indeed they do already even if running from a coal fired plant, but that is a moot point in teh UK, coal is pretty much finished.

The other imponderable is the energy cost in building a car in the first place, where you can certainly make an argument that its better to have a polluting old car than a new one, whose pollution costs were incurred elsewhere in manufacture, and just not visible to you - but then again there's the local pollution you save by not running a petrol / diesel car outsde teh local school or whatever.

What are the ten journeys you do you think couldn't be done by an electric car?

AnotherJoe

Gloomendoom wrote: »

There may be half the number of parts in an EV but very few of the other half that you will find in an ICEV would be checked at a service anyway.

Its about 1%not half. There are aprox 2000 moving parts in an IEC engine compared to aprox 20 in a electric car.

At a service for a Ev car you dont;
Change the oil
Check the transmission fluid
Top up / replace the coolant
Need to check the exhaust
Check the catalytic converter (and make sure some scumbag hasnt removed it)
Top up the blue liquid
Maintain any of the hoses and belts
Replace spark plugs
Clean the fuel injectors

BeenThroughItAll

AnotherJoe wrote: »

Its about 1%not half. There are aprox 2000 moving parts in an IEC engine compared to aprox 20 in a electric car.

At a service for a Ev car you dont;
Change the oil
Check the transmission fluid
Top up / replace the coolant
Need to check the exhaust
Check the catalytic converter (and make sure some scumbag hasnt removed it)
Top up the blue liquid
Maintain any of the hoses and belts
Replace spark plugs
Clean the fuel injectors

You do both of those things, otherwise your very expensive motor could end up overheating, and if you don't bother to check/replace hoses and belts, what's going to drive the alternator and A/C compressor and prevent all that coolant you've just topped up falling straight through any holes that haven't been noticed?


Also, an IC (not IEC) engine does not have anywhere near 2000 moving parts - if you believe that, go and buy an old engine and take it apart, and come back when you've counted all the parts that move. I'll give you a clue - it won't take long.


If you mean how many moving parts are in a whole vehicle powered by an IC engine, then there may be 2000 or many more - but many of those (window winders, pedals, knobs, switches, alternators, steering pumps, drivetrain, steering wheel, brake parts, hinges, etc, etc absolutely WILL be fitted to your EV as well, unless you'd intending to sit on the motor and steer with your feet on the ground.

IanMSpencer

AnotherJoe wrote: »

What are the ten journeys you do you think couldn't be done by an electric car?

Holidays and visits to the far flung family. Don't think I'd risk the Highlands for recharging points, nor a trot across to Dresden. But travel around the West Midlands is rarely beyond the range of a reasonable car even now.

Life cycle for the ICE is pretty awful, but I think electricity cycle costs from manufacture of a wind turbine through to re-use of batteries and all points in between isn't as pretty as people might imagine. And thinking of longer term costs, we forget, for example, that the electricity route at the moment is being subsidised, and in the future, electricity for fuel is likely to be an irresistible tax source (propane is taxed differently for car use compared with domestic use). Move fuel duty onto electricity, together with increased costs of delivery as the infrastructure has to be upgraded (cf telephone network being used to supply broadband) long term the electric car's only attraction will be that actually by then it'll simply be better than driving an old fashioned diesel or petrol.

jeradon

To me, electric cars are great for short trips only.

peter_the_piper

Most cars are used for short trips so as long as they are less than 75 miles then why have petrol?