Electric cars

AdrianC

Herzlos wrote: »

But Tesla doesn't have a Crossover yet

Indeed.

so I think it's fair to compare like with like. Unless you want to also add light trucks into the definition of cars?

No, I'll just restrict it to what potential buyers are comparing the Model 3 to in their buying decision.

Do they have plans for a Crossover, at more in line with the TM3 than the TMX? Because that'd be a real big seller (and likely what I'd go for - the X is stunning but I'll never be able to justify it).

We know they do. The Model Y. Rumoured to be launched publicly around the end of Q1 this year, production next year. Will it take sales from other manufacturers, or just switch Tesla sales? Will it increase production, or just switch production slots?

... it's not even built in the US (the Rav4).

Canada. No, not the US. But, then, many "US brands" are imported from Mexico and Canada anyway.

American brands used to be a big thing for the US, but I guess practicality has taken over there and I'm not sure many people actually care where stuff is built.

Indeed. I was merely pointing to the flaw in Martyn's Cleantechnica "No1 from US manufacturer" claim.

As far as the price cut goes, it's to be expected. The S and X are ageing - it's more of a surprise their sales are holding up so well at a time when any other manufacturer would have facelifted them once and the replacement would be imminent. The 3 is at what's clearly the sustainable production limit, early promises notwithstanding, and the proportion of those 455,000 pre-reservations which would turn into orders is looking like it's fairly well met, unless the buyers are waiting for the lower-end models to be launched.

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

No, I'll just restrict it to what potential buyers are comparing the Model 3 to in their buying decision.

But we don't know what else they are considering. Do you compare Porsche sales to all of VW or just to the performance ranges?

We know they do. The Model Y. Rumoured to be launched publicly around the end of Q1 this year, production next year. Will it take sales from other manufacturers, or just switch Tesla sales? Will it increase production, or just switch production slots?

Excellent. I've no idea if it'll take production slots away from the TM3 but it's a pretty safe bet it'll cannibalize a lot of sales in the Crossover sector, since you're so adamant that it's a different sector from the TM3.

I was merely pointing to the flaw in Martyn's Cleantechnica "No1 from US manufacturer" claim.

But you just seemed to have agreed with it. It's the No1 from a US manufacturer, unless by US manufacturer you mean "foreign brand with some production in the US". Most Americans wouldn't regard Toyota, Honda or Nissan to be US brands regardless of where the production is.

AdrianC

Herzlos wrote: »

But we don't know what else they are considering. Do you compare Porsche sales to all of VW or just to the performance ranges?

Considering the vast majority of Porsche's sales are the Cayenne and Macan, then yes, I think it's perfectly fair to compare them to BMW/Merc/Audi crossovers... And if you think people aren't comparing those crossovers with "cars" in the similar price range...

But you just seemed to have agreed with it. It's the No1 from a US manufacturer, unless by US manufacturer you mean "foreign brand with some production in the US". Most Americans wouldn't regard Toyota, Honda or Nissan to be US brands regardless of where the production is.

Congratulations, you've just written the entire last half century of the "British car industry" off, with the "honourable" exception of BMC/BL/Rover Group/MG Rover (if we ignore 1994-2000).

Yet the UK produces just as many cars now as it has ever done, and exports more than it's ever done.

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

The S and X are ageing - it's more of a surprise their sales are holding up so well at a time when any other manufacturer would have facelifted them once and the replacement would be imminent.

According to Topspeed.com (https://www.topspeed.com/cars/what-we-can-expect-from-tesla-in-2019tesla-model-y-autopilot-and-more-ar183991.html) the Model S is going to get it's 2nd face lift over the next year, and the X is going to get it's first.

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

Congratulations, you've just written the entire last half century of the "British car industry" off, with the "honourable" exception of BMC/BL/Rover Group/MG Rover (if we ignore 1994-2000).

Do British people regard Honda and Nissan to be British car manufacturers?

Everyone I've ever spoken to refers to them as Japanese, though often acknowledging that some are built here (for the current generation, at least).

AdrianC

The S already had a facelift? Oh, yes... It got a slightly different bumper and lost the "grille" a couple of years ago. Blink and miss it stuff.

AdrianC

Herzlos wrote: »

Do British people regard Honda and Nissan to be British car manufacturers?

Many regard Vauxhall and Ford as "British", even though Vauxhall has been US (now French) owned since 1925, and has been nothing more than a rebadge of Opels since the 70s - and Ford is the German wing of a US manufacturer. Opel built low-roof Vivaro vans in Luton, split Astra production between Ellesmere Port and Poland and that's it, while Ford have built nothing at all here since closing the Transit factory in Southampton in 2013.

The last non-BL "British car manufacturer" of any scale, if you're only considering ownership, was the Rootes Group before Chrysler took them over through the 60s, then sold them to PSA in the late 70s. Jaguar Land Rover is, of course, Indian-owned.

Herzlos

I think that largely proves my point. People are more concerned about the initial owner than the current owner as far as manufacturing is concerned. I'm sure many people regard JLR as British even if it's Indian owned, but to be fair most of the design/development/production work is done here.


Ditto when you say US car manufacturers, everyone thinks Chyrsler, Dodge, Pontiac, Cadillac, Ford and so on. Not Honda or Toyota.

AdrianC wrote: »

The S already had a facelift? Oh, yes... It got a slightly different bumper and lost the "grille" a couple of years ago. Blink and miss it stuff.

As far as I understand, they were tweaked pretty regularly as well, and get frequent OTA updates.

But yeah, not all facelifts have to be hugely obvious. I'd have at least googled "Model S facelift" before accusing them of letting it stagnate.

AdrianC

Herzlos wrote: »

I'm sure many people regard JLR as British even if it's Indian owned, but to be fair most of the design/development/production work is done here.

And many of those "Japanese" brands are selling US-only models in the US, designed and developed by their US design centres. Where the models are global, there are often quite substantial market differences.

Ditto when you say US car manufacturers, everyone thinks Chyrsler, Dodge, Pontiac, Cadillac, Ford and so on. Not Honda or Toyota.

Fiat-Chrysler Automobile is actually about the nearest to a "UK manufacturer", since their global HQ moved from Luxembourg to London a few years ago - but they're dual-listed on Italian and US stock exchanges. Pontiac hasn't existed in any form for nearly a decade, with the badge having been dropped in GM's last near-bankruptcy. Buick is primarily a Chinese-market badge - and some of the US-market Buick cars are imported from Chinese factories. Are they "American" cars?

Really, it all comes down to what "nationality" any product is in this globalised corporate world...

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

But only if you define "cars" so tightly as to exclude SUVs and crossovers, which are massively outselling "cars", to the point that most mainstream manufacturers are dropping their ranges of "cars", including the Focus that's only just behind the Model 3's sales. That's being replaced by the "Focus Active", a... crossover.



http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/12/november-2018-ytd-u-s-suv-and-crossover-sales-rankings-every-suv-ranked/
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/12/november-2018-ytd-u-s-passenger-car-sales-rankings-best-selling-cars-in-america/



Up to the end of November, the "No1 selling" Camry's 314k sales would have put it fourth after three SUVs (Toyota RAV4, Nissan Rogue and Honda CR-V). The Model 3's 114k would have put it 24th. Yes, it's the first "luxury" brand - but it's not far ahead of the Lexus RX. Yes, the monthly sales alone would have put it much higher - probably about 8th.

As for "no1 from a US manufacturer", the vast majority of those ahead of it are US- or North American-manufactured (No1, Toyota RAV4, is built in Canada for NA markets). They might not be US-owned brands, but...

LoL :rotfl: