Electric cars

Herzlos

You really don't. Even if you're a road warrior trying to do 1000 miles in a day, you'll probably need to stop every 3 hours (210 miles @ 70mph) for a pee, leg stretch and a coffee, at which point waiting 30 minutes for a fast (by current standards) charger. Chances are that if you're a road warrior you've got 30 minutes worth of email/admin to do by that point too.


If you're not planning on doing the sort of mileage that means you need to add 100 miles quickly (being that 100 miles is about 4 days mileage for the average driver, then slow charging wherever the car is spending all of it's time will do the job for you. Assuming you do a fairly average 21 miles a day, even at 10mph the car is spending 22/24 hours parked.


With proper infrastructure (which will arrive over time), there should be almost no need for dedicated charging stations, with the exception of trunk roads for those on road trips or haulage.


Since we're now seeing electric cars doing 250+ miles on a charge (like the Kona), most people only need to 'charge' them every other week. Most people likely spend long enough parked in Asda to cover their weekly usage.


The usage model may change slightly, but it'll be an awful lot more convenient than taking a detour via a petrol station for the vast majority of people.

gzoom

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Maybe Tesla should be a little nervous, Hyundai will beat them to market with a $35k car (almost $35k), and it's got a longer range, and it's not a car, it's a SUV.

Doed everyone you know current drive the same brand of combustion car?? And does everyone you know spend the same £££ on their cars??

The choice of EVs is growing, and its fab. I've never been a fan of VAG products but actually find the eTron Quattro quite appealing, much more so than the iPace or Model 3.

The Kona/Niro are great EVs that offer fab value for money, but I personally wouldnt be getting either.

The whole point of Tesla is to EV uptake quicker, the EV market was never going to be just about one brand, it will be like the combustion car market now, lots of brands with choice for consumers depending on price/needs.

I always thought our next car purchase would be a Model 3, or possibly an electric XJ, but the eTron GT looks fantastic and with specs to match. As long as the price doesn't go crazy I can see my self been very tempted.

The future is EVs, and its finally coming .

[Img]https://www.wardsauto.com/sites/wardsauto.com/files/styles/article_featured_retina/public/Audi e-tron GT 2_1.jpg?itok=XLVthQH2[/img]

Martyn1981

gzoom wrote: »

Doed everyone you know current drive the same brand of combustion car?? And does everyone you know spend the same £££ on their cars??

No and no. Strange questions!

As you state, Tesla is driving the market, but the market needs to be bigger than Tesla, hence my post celebrating the Kona, which like the Bolt before it, seems to have gotten slightly ahead of Tesla here.

I think that's a good thing. More competition and choice.

Martyn1981

Nothing particularly new here, but a short article celebrating the idea of electric trucks.

4 More Reasons That Electric Trucks Are Better Than Diesel Trucks

buglawton

Typhoon2000 wrote: »

What I need is ultrafast charging at dedicated spots like petrol stations. Drive in top up in 5min, drive off - much like filling a car with petrol. No need to fit charging points to houses, every street light and parking spot, or overnight charging.

I Don’t want to rely on finding a low powered charging at point at my destination and hope there isn’t another car the parked for the whole day.
I see there are now 350kw chargers that can give you 100miles in 5min, so hopefully in a few more years we will be there. We already have petrol stations at strategic points. No need to fill the streets with charging points and cables.

Better still would be inductive charging at petrol stations so you don’t need to get out of the car for those five minutes.

Robotic coupling from underneath the vehicle is the most likely future technology IMO. It's technically straightforward using existing electromechanics and drivers need barely be aware they're charging apart from their phone app telling them. Only requirement is to park in a designated bay.

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Nothing particularly new here, but a short article celebrating the idea of electric trucks.

4 More Reasons That Electric Trucks Are Better Than Diesel Trucks

Hmm. Let's look at those four benefits.

1. Noise. The illustration shows a bin wagon. Think about the bin wagon that visits your house. How much of the noise of it in operation is from the engine...? Very little. Most is from the hydraulics operating the lifts, and from the bin being emptied - especially recycling collections - and from the compaction of the rubbish once emptied. Think about refrigerated trucks delivering to food retailers. How much of the noise is from the refrigeration equipment?

2. Regenerative braking. Well, the same applies to hybrids.

3. Power to grid. Yep. If you're not planning on using those trucks. And if the grid itself isn't damaged by the natural disaster. How much of post-severe-weather power outages are due to restoring the localised grid, rather than getting generation capacity back on? All they'd be doing is replacing localised generators - which aren't deployed that often.

4. Alternate energy... Solar on the trailer roof. Well, your typical HGV box trailer roof is ~13m x <2.5m, a bit over 30m2, flat and not sun-directed. I'll let you do the sums on how much generation capacity that'll give on a day like today.
I'll also let you compare that to 56mph x 8mpg x ~10kWh/litre of diesel x ~40% combustion efficiency.
Oh, yes, and let's not forget many trunk hgv miles are done at night...

<thinks> I wonder if wind turbines could be put on the roof to harness that 56mph headwind...? Obviously, they'd have to be very low profile to fit under bridges... If we do the calculations carefully enough, we could probably invent viable perpetual motion!

Oh, and Bug - it's been tried before. BetterPlace went bust, Tesla gave up. The manufacturers can't even standardise on a single charging connector. Think about all those batteries on charge in the back room, and how thick a bit of wire you're going to need going in.

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Hmm. Let's look at those four benefits.

1. Noise. The illustration shows a bin wagon. Think about the bin wagon that visits your house. How much of the noise of it in operation is from the engine...? Very little. Most is from the hydraulics operating the lifts, and from the bin being emptied - especially recycling collections - and from the compaction of the rubbish once emptied. Think about refrigerated trucks delivering to food retailers. How much of the noise is from the refrigeration equipment?

2. Regenerative braking. Well, the same applies to hybrids.

3. Power to grid. Yep. If you're not planning on using those trucks. And if the grid itself isn't damaged by the natural disaster. How much of post-severe-weather power outages are due to restoring the localised grid, rather than getting generation capacity back on? All they'd be doing is replacing localised generators - which aren't deployed that often.

4. Alternate energy... Solar on the trailer roof. Well, your typical HGV box trailer roof is ~13m x <2.5m, a bit over 30m2, flat and not sun-directed. I'll let you do the sums on how much generation capacity that'll give on a day like today.
I'll also let you compare that to 56mph x 8mpg x ~10kWh/litre of diesel x ~40% combustion efficiency.
Oh, yes, and let's not forget many trunk hgv miles are done at night...

<thinks> I wonder if wind turbines could be put on the roof to harness that 56mph headwind...? Obviously, they'd have to be very low profile to fit under bridges... If we do the calculations carefully enough, we could probably invent viable perpetual motion!

Oh, and Bug - it's been tried before. BetterPlace went bust, Tesla gave up. The manufacturers can't even standardise on a single charging connector. Think about all those batteries on charge in the back room, and how thick a bit of wire you're going to need going in.

The quality of your FUD has been going downhill for months now. I suspect you are finding it harder and harder to come up with anti-EV garbage truck sized gibberish. But I admire your devotion.

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

1. Noise. The illustration shows a bin wagon. Think about the bin wagon that visits your house. How much of the noise of it in operation is from the engine...? Very little. Most is from the hydraulics operating the lifts, and from the bin being emptied - especially recycling collections - and from the compaction of the rubbish once emptied. Think about refrigerated trucks delivering to food retailers. How much of the noise is from the refrigeration equipment?

Most of the noise is from the engines on ours. Either in maneuvering the huge machines, or driving the pumps for the hydraulics. Sure, you can't do much about the bin being emptied, but you can sort the rest. Bin trucks are a great example of where EV trucks would be useful - I don't imagine they can do more than a few miles before filling up with rubbish and needing to return to the depot?



Translate that to any other truck - Skip lorries, hi-abs and so on, most of the noise is removed.


Then for working trucks, you can re-use the battery to provide outlets which are still silent - you don't need to be running the truck engine to power the tail lift, or site tools, etc.


Then the battery means you can potentially lower the cab and load bay height, because you can shape it any way you want - lower trucks means less diversions for bridges and less air resistance.


EV's have much better torque than diesel, so they should be able to get up to speed better, won't struggle with inclines so much, can handle larger loads and so on.





The only case where diesel trucks are better than EV's and likely always will be is the range - super long range trucks where electric supply is difficult will always be better served with diesel, which is quicker to reload.



Even then, single crew trucks can only really cover about 550 miles in a day (11 driving hours over 14, with a 10 hour rest), so if you can get, say, 300 miles out an EV and can stop for an hour in the middle of the day you can cover it. It won't be long before EV trucks will be able to do 400 miles on a charge.



For twin crew trucks (one resting, one driving), it's going to be a bit more of a bottleneck, or for trucks in the middle of nowhere). But for everyone else, it's not going to be that big of an issue. The fuel savings will easily outweigh the extra driver time.





You're going out of your way to slate EV's for whatever personal grudge you had, but if you put the same energy into thinking about how they'd work, you'd be amazed at the possibilities.

AdrianC

Herzlos wrote: »

Bin trucks are a great example of where EV trucks would be useful - I don't imagine they can do more than a few miles before filling up with rubbish and needing to return to the depot?

I think you'd be surprised. In city centres, it might only be a few miles from depot to streets, with a high density of housing, but think wider. There may only be one or two depots for an entire county.

Then for working trucks, you can re-use the battery to provide outlets which are still silent - you don't need to be running the truck engine to power the tail lift

You don't anyway. Tail-lifts are electric, and tend to come with additional batteries.

Then the battery means you can potentially lower the cab and load bay height, because you can shape it any way you want - lower trucks means less diversions for bridges and less air resistance.

Are you lowering the trailer - and load - height, too?

Remember, the way that some bin wagons achieve a lower cab is by increasing the length outside the load bay. That's not an option to artics without restricting the load capacity, because they're already at full maximum legal length.


Compare the cab architecture with the tractor unit above...

You're going out of your way to slate EV's for whatever personal grudge you had, but if you put the same energy into thinking about how they'd work, you'd be amazed at the possibilities.

No, I'm simply pointing out the facts and reality that the clickbait listicle from a somewhat biased source forgets to mention.

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

No, I'm simply pointing out the facts and reality that the clickbait listicle from a somewhat biased source forgets to mention.

You're really stretching. It's a good thing to have nay-sayers though, no point in everyone being optimistic. I take it as a positive sign for EV's how much you're struggling to pick holes these days

Some trailers & trucks probably can't get much lower, some can.


You are sort of right on the bin truck thing; some of them may need to travel further distances, but the solution to that is to either keep what's left of the diesel for those long range runs, or uprate the battery on some of them. We could easily get a truck capable of a 200+ mile range which should be able to cover anywhere. For those runs that are in the 10's of miles, they'll get plenty of opportunity to run with smaller batter packs (less weight / more cargo) or can recharge more often.


On the whole, it's already a solved problem.




On the solar roof stuff - all they need to do is save more money in energy than they cost to fit - That 30m2 roof could potentially generate 6kw of electricity (assuming 20% efficiency, in the appropriate climate). Put that on a trailer with a batter and over a 12 hour sunny day in somewhere that is south of Bristol and you'll get about 72kwh of electricity.



Cars are getting about 4-5 miles per kwh at the moment, so even if a truck is only getting 0.5 miles/kwh, that's 36 miles range "for free".




On the back to grid stuff - you don't need to put it into the grid, you could park the truck next to any power consumer and with the appropriate adapters could run it. So in a disaster you could have any free trucks park in a hospital car park and keep it going, or power a school or an office or something for a while. Or as said, you can charge up when it's cheap and sell any excess power you have if it's needed (say you have a truck that's got a full charge but is idle for the day because of maintenance or something).

It'd also be pretty interesting if there was a way that a fleet of trucks were able to provide some of the power required to keep a ferry running, or the opposite and have them charge from the ferry. It also opens up the possibility of peer-to-peer fueling. You've got 2 trucks in a layby, one is done for the day and has 200kwh left, the other has a long trip ahead, you can transfer charge from one to the other in a way you couldn't with diesel.


You can also deal with a lot of the road warrior range anxiety by having a pantograph in a truck lane alone the trunk routes.



The possibilities are almost endless.