Electric cars

silverwhistle

zeupater wrote: »

Silverwhistle seems to have recognised what was being conveyed in the example ..

I was also trying to convey the point that in practice we don't need even the 200+ miles of the Kona, particularly if charging infrastructure improves. I can't remember the last time I did even 100 miles in a day. Ah... actually, I can, it was our trip to the Alps last January, and although my car is still fine we're going to use one of my GFs company vans, which is car based, has cruise control and can fit an awful lot more skis and wine in the back!


So we're back to transport solutions, which may change with technology as so much else has.


Incidentally, NigelWick, the Kona does look like a decent buy, but if you look at the EV forums deliveries are some way in the distance. If you look at the dealers commenting on the boards about that and other EV models you get comments on the lines of "the UK has been allocated n cars in the latest shipment", reinforcing Zeupater's point about continuing supply constrictions.

Martyn1981

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

Silverwhistle seems to have recognised what was being conveyed in the example ... the Hyundai Kona you raised in an earlier post may have a range of 260+ miles with a 64kWh battery pack whereas the PHEV version of the Toyota Prius has 8.8kWh, thus allowing 7x more vehicles to be built whilst there are supply constraints ... with average UK daily mileage being less than the range of the Prius PHEV, the emissions & climatic impact of displacing ICE vehicles would be 'up to' 7x as great, with no argument on range anxiety and a cheaper product can be delivered to market whilst battery costs remain high ...

HTH
Z

Can I just say that I agree with your position in the real world, but disagree with it in theory since hybrids are now clearly a technological dead end since they have slightly higher TOC than an ICE, whilst BEV's are slightly lower (than an ICE).

It's a shame that batt production simply can't keep up (as demonstrated by Tesla's price increase for the PWII simply because they can, as demand is greater than supply).

With most products an issue like this wouldn't matter, but as cars are good for 10-15yrs, it's a shame that a hybrid might be sold instead of a BEV. But, environmentally, you are of course dead right that having say 5 hybrids massively reducing their CO2 emissions v's one BEV is better.

With the rapidly rising demand for BEV's, I don't see batt production getting high enough to solve the demand/supply issue for some time, sadly. But I suppose a win's a win.


Speaking of BEV demand exceeding batt supply, Jaguar is considering going all BEV, which sounds like a brave and sensible move for a small company (small part of JLR) with the ability to pivot more easily.

Jaguar Mulls Transition To Fully Electric Lineup


And an interesting video on BEV safety - yes I know it's from a Tesla site and about Tesla, but I'd assume that many of the factors apply to all BEV's, such as the lower centre of gravity, better 50/50 weight distribution (spread evenly, not like a dumbell), and the extra space available for crumpling at the front when you don't need to allow for a large metal lump of engine/transmission.

Model 3: Safest Car in the World | In Depth

Stageshoot

NigeWick wrote: »

I think it is for most of us. The new Hyundai Kona has a realistic range of about 260 miles and when the new super fast rapid chargers are rolled out, will be able to get from 20% to 80% in less than 20 minutes. 80% of 260 is 200 odd miles and I don't think many would want to drive more than that without a rest. I know I get bladder anxiety at 120-140 miles.

260 is a minimum for the Kona on the Motorway at 70 throw in some traffic and around town and its difficult to get the average use under 280ish I have found (After doing 7000 miles in mine so far).

Steady 60mph returns 310-320 everytime
Steady 70mph returns 270-280 everytime

As for the charging, 45 mins on a 50kw instavolt or polar will take it from 25% to 85% easily.
Charging does not really slow down till 92% (50kwh up to 73% 30Kwh up to 77% 22Kwh up to 92%) Then 11 or less to full.

So if you stop for a 1 hour lunch you can easily go from 20% up to 90% again (250 miles range).

Since getting the Kona I have moved away from my old A,B,C (Always Be Charging), to not really bothering to charge at home anymore and just chucking it on a rapid for a bit while having a lunch break out and about, (Unless its a 300+ mile work day the next morning then I make sure it goes to 100% overnight).

There really is NO range anxiety at all with the Kona. When the low battery warning comes on at 10% it still has 30+ miles left (more like 50 if you are in town traffic), so you just find a rapid, no hassle with planning. Low battery on the Kona is almost 50% battery on my old i3 or leaf.

NigeWick

zeupater wrote: »

It's a case of looking at the relative emissions (/climate) impact of an ideology led (zero emission) strategy vs one which is based on resource availability

Agreed, and I vote zero emission.

NigeWick

silverwhistle wrote: »

the Kona does look like a decent buy, but if you look at the EV forums deliveries are some way in the distance.

reinforcing Zeupater's point about continuing supply constrictions.

Can't disagree, except to say what I have previously, if there are orders (think Tesla Model 3) manufacturers will up their game.

zeupater

NigeWick wrote: »

Agreed, and I vote zero emission.

Hi

So would I in an ideal world ... however, reality deems that EVs are relatively expensive, most out of the range of the majority of 'normal' new car buyers and therefore 'take-up' would likely be lower than it would be if the EV transition included an interim PHEV phase ...

The short-term effect would be the ability to place around 7x more vehicles into the road even with current levels of restricted battery supply, the cost differential between ICE and PHEVs being relatively low would have a greater impact on EV demand and that demand would drive medium-term investment in battery manufacturing facilities, which in turn drives the competition & economies of scale needed to rapidly reduce storage costs ... as battery costs fall, BEVs become more affordable and that's when the hybrid/BEV transition for long-term zero-emissions makes sense ...

Whether we transition to BEVs or not isn't the issue, it's how you stimulate the market to complete the transition within the shortest timeline that meets the criteria of being affordable, achievable & having the greatest short-term impact on global emission reductions, after-all it's worries about the climate and pending deadlines that provide the sole driver for the changeover - isn't it?!

HTH
Z

NigeWick

zeupater wrote: »

So would I in an ideal world ...

Z. I can't disagree with your logic. It's just that I feel so strongly about renewables, its storage and electric transport.

To get to that ideal world, we need far more strict rules and regs. And these can be dictated by government, as was the Clean Air Act that eventually allowed me to witness the last Pea Souper.

silverwhistle

zeupater wrote: »

The short-term effect would be the ability to place around 7x more vehicles into the road

..and 7x more second-hand vehicles in 3 years time when PCP deals conclude and cars come onto the second-hand market..


Bear in mind many of us aren't even " 'normal' new car drivers". My previous two cars I kept until they were 12 and disposal of both was unrelated to their lack of desirability or reliability. I've got three years to go on my current one then, unless I start splashing some savings. So at the moment the choice is only Leaf or Zoe..

Martyn1981

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

So would I in an ideal world ... however, reality deems that EVs are relatively expensive, most out of the range of the majority of 'normal' new car buyers and therefore 'take-up' would likely be lower than it would be if the EV transition included an interim PHEV phase ...

HTH
Z

I'm very optimistic that BEV sales will expand rapidly, but saw some oddly depressing news recently, that Tesla was the top selling car company in the world (for BEV's) in 2018 H1 (BAIC and Nissan were 2nd and 3rd).

I found that depressing as Tesla (certainly in H1) didn't make that many BEV's (in context), so we really need a lot of companies to start building a serious number of cars per year, 500k (not 100k or less), and aim for profitability, not compliance.

Martyn1981

Lots of EV news on Cleantechnica.

Exclusive: Angela Merkel Put Heat On Automakers To Electrify Faster

Exclusive intel I’ve collected from the inner circles of this world is that this was the first time when such a vote came up that German Chancellor Angela Merkel didn’t call the relevant EU policymakers in order to push for the weaker targets. In other words, through her silence on the matter, Merkel gave the policymakers nearly explicit permission to vote for the more aggressive targets. My understanding is that her perspective on such policies runs the show, and her decision to not lobby on behalf of the automakers was not only a first but also unexpected. (Perhaps she missed a calendar reminder?)

In April 2018, Altmaier, Germany’s Economy Minister, emphasized strongly that German auto manufacturers needed to invest into electric vehicle tech in the “two-digit billion amounts,” and noted that he wasn’t sure why there had been such a holdup on such serious investments. That “two-digit billion” figure didn’t even count batteries, which he said needed similar investments.

Nonetheless, despite what is surely constant pressure from the auto lobby, Merkel decided to stay out of the Parliamentary vote on the 2030 CO2 emissions target and thus left the door open for the more aggressive 40% by 2030 goal, which led to the compromise 35% target.

Despite the need for stronger cuts and the auto industry’s bad habit of slow-walking the revolution and complaining all along the way, my understanding is that it’s the earlier reduction targets and penalties for missing them that have BMW and VW execs a bit freaked out. After the Parliament’s vote, EURACTIV noted, “Parliament reintroduced a penalty system or malus for manufacturers that fail to meet those benchmarks. The Commission had actually removed that measure from its proposal following lobbying from the German car industry.” Perhaps the German automakers though they’d be able to skate at a comfortable pace to 2030, at which point most of the execs would probably be retired anyway, right?

Volkswagen’s MEB Chassis Will Be The Foundation For 10 Million Electric Cars. But Where’s The Frunk?

For its new ID electric car division, Volkswagen has created the MEB toolkit — a chassis designed specifically for electric cars rather than a reinterpretation of an existing chassis designed for gasoline or diesel engines. Thomas Ulbricht, head of e-mobility at Volkswagen says, “The MEB modular electric drive matrix is probably the most important project in Volkswagen’s history. The platform that Volkswagen is developing is more consistent and innovative than many of the other platforms. By 2022 alone, we anticipate that four Volkswagen Group brands will be ramping up 27 MEB models worldwide, ranging from compact cars to the I.D. BUZZ van.”

Tough All-Terrain Electric Bollinger B2 Makes Hummers Look Even More Antiquated

72 sheets of 1/2inch plywood ..... cool!


Hundreds Speak Against Rollback Of Clean Car Standards At Public Hearings

The US DOT and EPA recently held three days of hearings in Fresno, Dearborn, and Pittsburgh on the Trump administration’s proposal to reverse existing federal fuel efficiency and emissions standards, and members of the public had a chance to comment.

Hundreds of people, including physicians and health advocates, former EPA officials and technology entrepreneurs, environmental advocates and local officials, testified against the plan, vastly outnumbering the handful that came out in support. Even representatives of automakers and the aluminum industry opposed the effort to water down the standards.

A former EPA analyst who spent years working on emissions policy testified that the technical analysis for this proposal was the “most biased and dishonest” he had witnessed in his 40-year career at the agency.