Electric cars

Martyn1981

Crag30 wrote: »

And when we've all bought electric, they'll bring out Hydrogen vehicles :wall:

I wouldn't worry about that. With H2 cars consuming 3 to 4 times as much leccy per mile they will struggle getting any true traction in the small vehicle world. With battery prices falling and charging speeds rising, plus of course the ability to charge in no time (when home), any H2 advantages are disappearing fast.

Martyn1981

Trivial point, but always worth mentioning additional markets for EV's - I was chatting with a Guide Dog trainer yesterday, and the organisation is planning to switch from MPV's (etc) to small vans. She also mentioned the problems of training lately where they take two dogs out, and train one at a time. Training is usually about 30 mins as it's mentally very tiring.

But ..... lately it's been difficult as the dog 'left behind' might get too hot, despite the vehicles having ventilation. She mentioned a police device that allows the vehicle to be left running to power the lights, and this could be used by GD's to power air/con.

I pointed out that an EV van would seem a good idea as the air con could be left on and would only consume a small amount of energy.

I was also surprised at the amount of miles they do, which is obvious after a bit of thought given they are supporting people all over. So again, EV's would help with running costs, and every penny counts when each dog costs £25k-£50k (all in).

Slight digression but my brother-in-law was over recently (from Sweden) and pointed out that he's able to warm or cool his PHEV (30(ish) mile range) when the plane is landing, something very useful to him as he does a lot of flying as part of his job.

Herzlos

EV's and the ability to use electric power without unlocking or running an engine open up a whole new range of possibilities for car usage, and provide a lot of conveience (as mentioned, you can have the car warmed/cooled by the time you get to it without having to go out and prime it).


Then you've got things like worksite generators - you don't need to keep an engine on to power tools, or keep the cabin cool for breaks. You'd have much greater battery capacity for RV's and so on.



You also eliminate the need to leave a vehicle idling when people are waiting (taxis, police cars, school runs).


That's partially why so few of the EV users seem to show any interest in going back to combustion; it's a huge step backwards in a lot of ways.

GunJack wrote: »

I'll consider going electric when I can get 450+ miles on a charge, it charges in 10 mins (equivalent of a garage fill-up of diesel), and I can buy a decent used one for £500 or less...

That's the reality of driving for much of the population, and until electric gets as good as that, I think it'll struggle to go totally mainstream...

I think they'll be totally mainstream by the time they hit £10k used and can do 200 miles on a 30 minute charge.


By that point, given the prices of fueling, it'd be very difficult justifying the purchase of a combustion car.


Average car mileage in the UK is about 130miles a week, so even a 150 mile range Leaf (available now) will do most people with an overnight charge once a week, which is even more convenient than going to a petrol station, and about a quarter of the running cost.

GunJack

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Very true ...... and your shares in 'buggy whips' will bounce back too.

???? Eh? Don't get that at all.....

GunJack

Herzlos wrote: »

I think they'll be totally mainstream by the time they hit £10k used and can do 200 miles on a 30 minute charge.


By that point, given the prices of fueling, it'd be very difficult justifying the purchase of a combustion car.


Average car mileage in the UK is about 130miles a week, so even a 150 mile range Leaf (available now) will do most people with an overnight charge once a week, which is even more convenient than going to a petrol station, and about a quarter of the running cost.

Still, 20x what I spend to buy a car now, and it would take a hell of a long time (many years) to recoup that in lower electric than diesel costs... will there be a subsidy to me of £9500 from somewhere??? If so, sign me up :rotfl:

zeupater

GunJack wrote: »

I'll consider going electric when I can get 450+ miles on a charge, it charges in 10 mins (equivalent of a garage fill-up of diesel), and I can buy a decent used one for £500 or less...

That's the reality of driving for much of the population, and until electric gets as good as that, I think it'll struggle to go totally mainstream...

Hi


.. so, when the current abundance of petrol station turns to a rarity, you'll be happy to drive for hours to find one that's still open & pay through the nose for the privilege? ... I'd rather simply plug the car in every few days at home and have a good night's sleep! ...

In reality, 450 miles between recharging/refuelling is a huge distance ... for the average UK motorist it represents something that only needs to happen every 3 weeks ... one 450 mile return journey/month would almost equate to average UK mileage, whereas travelling that distance every working day would be practically impossible from the driver's viewpoint, even though it should be possible with the range offered by a number of recently announced EVs with overnight & destination charging.

Where I do tend to agree is that the cost of used EVs will be far higher than is currently common for ICEs, this being related to the value of the powerpack, either for re-use or material recycling .... however, consideration must be given to the ongoing running costs (fuel, servicing, MOT, road tax, tolls, congestion charge etc) - if the government need or decide to 'encourage' drivers to move over to EVs for environmental purposes, there are plenty of levers available for them to pull, so expect them to be pulled!

Whatever the cost of EV motoring turns out to be over time, it's almost certain that the overall cost of ICE motoring will be higher in almost every case.

HTH
Z

GunJack

zeupater wrote: »

Hi


.. so, when the current abundance of petrol station turns to a rarity, you'll be happy to drive for hours to find one that's still open & pay through the nose for the privilege? ... I'd rather simply plug the car in every few days at home and have a good night's sleep! ...

In reality, 450 miles between recharging/refuelling is a huge distance ... for the average UK motorist it represents something that only needs to happen every 3 weeks ... one 450 mile return journey/month would almost equate to average UK mileage, whereas travelling that distance every working day would be practically impossible from the driver's viewpoint, even though it should be possible with the range offered by a number of recently announced EVs with overnight & destination charging.

Where I do tend to agree is that the cost of used EVs will be far higher than is currently common for ICEs, this being related to the value of the powerpack, either for re-use or material recycling .... however, consideration must be given to the ongoing running costs (fuel, servicing, MOT, road tax, tolls, congestion charge etc) - if the government need or decide to 'encourage' drivers to move over to EVs for environmental purposes, there are plenty of levers available for them to pull, so expect them to be pulled!

Whatever the cost of EV motoring turns out to be over time, it's almost certain that the overall cost of ICE motoring will be higher in almost every case.

HTH
Z

The ongoing costs may work out cheaper eventually,but unless fuel duty rises horrendously the other costs will be similar. not much difference in VED between £0 and £30 a year, MoT tests will still cost £30-£35, insurance could even be more as they price in expensive batteries needing replacement after crashes... so it's not so clear-cut as you think.....

What's a congestion charge, BTW?? For the majority of the population it's not something we need to consider as we don't live in big cities, cost = £0, and get a bit fed up of having to pay increased fuel costs "because of all the pollution in London/Manchester/insert city name in here"


But it's still the initial purchase price that is (and I expect it to be for a loooong time yet) the major sticking point....I've spent a total of around £800 for my last 5 cars, that's what electric cars are up against...

GunJack

Oh, and don't think I'm against the idea of EVs, I'm not, but the price has to be slashed for them to be a practical alternative...

Herzlos

I think it's a combination of EV prices coming down and ICE prices going up. Fuel is only going to get more expensive as it's harder to source and people are buying less of it. Fuel duty is only going to go up, VED is only going to go up (there's no £30 band anymore, for instance).


Congestion charging / combustion restrictions are likely to roll out further / to more places to battle the air quality problems. Eventually, petrol stations will start to close / transform into EV charging stations.


The price of ownership for EV's will drop below ICE for most people at some point; once you factor in servicing/maintenance and fuel (~20p/mile Vs ~5p/mile).
Drivers doing 16k miles a year for instance, are saving about £200/month in fuel with an EV. That £200 may pretty much cover the payments on the car. Above that, it's potentially cheaper to get a new EV on PCP than run an old combustion car.

Herzlos

GunJack wrote: »

Still, 20x what I spend to buy a car now, and it would take a hell of a long time (many years) to recoup that in lower electric than diesel costs... will there be a subsidy to me of £9500 from somewhere??? If so, sign me up :rotfl:

I think realistically, very few people are only spending £500 on a car. Look at the number of cars on autotrader for £500 Vs £10k.



Plus as I mentioned, at fairly reasonable mileages, a £10k EV will be cheaper to own than a £500 Combustion.