Electric cars

Gloomendoom

gzoom wrote: »

^ Absolutely, what Ford managed in 1915 was cheap mass production, apparently at one point 50% of cars in the world was the Model T. The biggest problem with electric cars at the moment is the cost of the battery.

Those aren't Model T Fords in the picture, they are "Detroit Electric" cars. 80 miles on one charge (although one did manage 211 miles in a record breaking attempt).

The only petrol car looks like a Renault.

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

They've always assembled the battery packs - which use thousands of cells.

Yep. But what you said was that:

Tesla do the same as everybody else - they assemble battery packs from other people's cells

in response to a post about their own Gigafactory, producing their own batts. So your statement wasn't true.

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Yep. But what you said was that:

in response to a post about their own Gigafactory, producing their own batts. So your statement wasn't true.

Did you actually bother to read the next sentence?

The only difference is that Panasonic are partners in the factory, so will be assembling cells on-site.

gzoom

AdrianC wrote: »

Did you actually bother to read the next sentence?

Tesla are leagues ahead of every one else in terms of battery pack supply, they already have the lowest cost cells per kWh, and soon will be increasing that advantage.

Rather than read and speculate about EV tech we are putting down the cash like many others, as they say action speaks alot more than words. I would rather not spend the amount of ££££ Tesla want for a X but as it stands theres nothing else in the EV market that fits our needs. But change is coming like it or not, and I cannot wait for others manufactures to get involved .

Its not just Tesla Model 3 that is the running for us, Jag iPace is also a potential next car for the wife, or the i5 if BMW gets on with it, infact as long as it's an EV we'll consider it, exciting times ahead.

gzoom

AdrianC wrote: »

They've always assembled the battery packs - which use thousands of cells.
http://hackaday.com/2014/09/13/tesla-model-s-battery-teardown/

Until those new 2170s came on-stream, the packs were built from utterly generic 18650 cells.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01LF6HG36/

It won't be long before the 2170s are similarly generic.
https://electrek.co/2017/01/09/samsung-2170-battery-cell-tesla-panasonic/

The 18650 cells may be 'generic' no one apart from Tesla have access to the volumes and ability to pack them for a mass production EV.

The GM Bolt has a 60kWh LG batter pack, but supply is so limited GM have limited production to just 30,000 a year. Tesla are already at 80,000 last year before the cheaper 3 has come into production. GM are also rumoured to be selling each Bolt at a loss.

I think most manufactures have completely under estimated the need for a dedicated battery supply chain as EV production ramps up. The next few years will be interesting, but VAG have aleast seen the light and looking into securing their own battery production.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/27/vw-to-invest-8bn-in-battery-factory-as-it-tries-to-reinvent-itse/

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Did you actually bother to read the next sentence?

Yep, that added confusion/contradiction to your first sentence, but still gave the impression that they weren't making their own cells.

Very strange post to be honest especially as it was critical of gzoom's post which was correct.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, or perhaps agree to agree, depending on what you were trying to say, and which sentence was the one you meant.

Regardless, the world now has a major EV manufacturer, with their own massive expansion in world battery production, with a secondary route to market for batts (domestic/commercial/grid storage), so it's all looking very good for EV market expansion.

IamNotAllowedToUseMyName

I think the death of deisel will bring hybrids to the Forest. Euro6 deisel engines are so expensive to build that hybrids are similar in costs. As people want headline figures - range, torque, acceleration and fuel consumption, hybrid is the only way to deliver that on a petrol vehicle.

Myself, I think that a generator electric with a small engine running at peak efficiency is a good compromise.

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Yep, that added confusion/contradiction to your first sentence

No, it didn't. Unless, of course, you're a bit confused about the difference between the battery packs and the cells.

but still gave the impression that they weren't making their own cells.

Because they aren't. Panasonic are a partner in the Tesla factory, and are making the cells, which Tesla are then assembling into the packs. This is all perfectly normal for the automotive industry - with the minor detail that normally the strategic component partners are actually just clustered around the main assembly plant.

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Because they aren't. Panasonic are a partner in the Tesla factory, and are making the cells, which Tesla are then assembling into the packs.

So, to confirm, within the Tesla Gigafactory battery cells are being made (as well as being assembled).

So gzoom's statement:

gzoom wrote: »

Tesla are the only EV manufacture who going to have access to their own battery supply via their battery factory. If only I had the foresight to buy Tesla share a few years ago

is correct.

What's the problem, why all the negative pedantry, isn't it all good news?

AdrianC

Martyn1981 wrote: »

So, to confirm, within the Tesla Gigafactory battery cells are being made (as well as being assembled).

By Panasonic, yes.

So gzoom's statement:

Tesla are the only EV manufacture who going to have access to their own battery supply via their battery factory

is correct.

No, and on two counts - because it's Panasonic producing the cells - and because they're not the only one.

Apart from anybody else, Nissan have been producing their own cells for several years. Actually making them THEMSELVES, not relying on a partner sharing a corner of the factory to do it for you.
http://www.adandp.media/articles/nissan-is-building-ev-batteries-and-evs-in-smyrna

You say "why the negative pedantry" - perhaps a better question is why the fanboi loyalty and refusal to accept that Tesla really aren't doing anything THAT different?

The cars themselves aren't that different, using a lot of recycled Mercedes running gear. The energy efficiency isn't that different, with similar range per kwh. The main difference is that they're shoving far bigger (and heavier) battery packs in, so giving a bigger headline range. Woo. Oh, and they're this week's heavily-hyped poster boys.

The maths quite simply does not stack up for them, and they WILL come falling down in an unholy expensive collapse sooner or later.