Why are leavers so angry

Doshwaster

Cornucopia wrote: »

So... Do the Remain camp believe that post-Brexit, countries like Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy, France, Belgium, Holland, and others will simply refuse UK tourism?

Of course not. What makes you think that?

Cornucopia

Doshwaster wrote: »

Of course not. What makes you think that?

Originally it was a comment by a guest on Newsnight that she felt that the Brexit decision had robbed her generation of the possibility of partying in Ibiza.

In the context of this thread, the term "EU Citizenship" has been mentioned several times, despite being somewhat meaningless. I was wondering what people meant by the term? Holidays? Overseas working? Freedom to relocate?

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

So you're quite happy for the EU nations and the UK to agree continued EU citizenship for all and no change to the status quo?

trying to point out that EU citizenship wasn't ever 'ours' : it was only there due to an agreement between countries and NOT as a right.

As you know, I want the UK to be able to decide on who comes here, so I would NOT be in favour of the UK offering all the citizens of the 27 (plus others that might join) the right to come to the UK.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

CLAPTON wrote: »

I want the UK to be able to decide on who comes here,.

So if the UK government decides that it's in our best interests to 'take back control' but then to also continue allowing free movement from the existing EU27 states in the medium term you're fine with that?

How about if the UK government decides to 'take back control' but then listens to the business community and demographers and keeps net migration at current levels with broadly the current mix of skilled/unskilled labour? Also OK with you?

Or is this whole strawman about 'deciding' just cover for 'I don't like immigration'?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

kabayiri wrote: »

Hmm, angry people then...

Yep.

And it seems many politicians underestimated how angry a lot of people would be about losing EU citizenship.

I guess for you to understand you'd have to think about what it would mean if someone else could take away your British citizenship against your will.

One thing is clearly apparent. There is no consistency or commonality to how well people have done out of this EU.

Some have. Some have not.

No.

What is clearly apparent is some people do not realise how well they have done out of the EU.

But that is entirely different to there being any ambiguity about it when viewed objectively.

I am genuinely depressed about some of the towns I knew growing up. There is nothing about these town centres that the EU could crow about in triumph.

And I am genuinely depressed when people don't realise just how much worse those towns and the whole country would have been without the benefits of EU membership.

Making things worse now by leaving the EU is nothing to "crow about in triumph'.

Leaving the EU may not fix things, but continuing the 'In' status quo sure as hell wasn't going to change things.

Leaving the EU will make most people's lives worse.

There are no credible outcomes where that is not the case.

Cornucopia

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

I guess for you to understand you'd have to think about what it would mean if someone else could take away your British citizenship against your will.

It's not the same thing at all, nor is it against anyone's will any more than any other democratic decision.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Cornucopia wrote: »

It's not the same thing at all,

Yes of course it is.

I highly value my EU citizenship, the recourse to EU rights it gives me, once of which is the right to live and work anywhere in the EU.

nor is it against anyone's will any more than any other democratic decision.

Och away....

If someone else could vote to strip you of your British citizenship against your will you'd be having kittens and ranting about how undemocratic it was.

Cornucopia

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Yes of course it is.

You only have this notional "EU Citizenship" as a direct consequence of being a British Citizen. If Britain leaves the EU, you leave with it.

Och away....

If someone else could vote to strip you of your British citizenship against your will you'd be having kittens and ranting about how undemocratic it was.

British Citizenship is so much more fundamental than "EU Citizenship".

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

So if the UK government decides that it's in our best interests to 'take back control' but then to also continue allowing free movement from the existing EU27 states in the medium term you're fine with that?

How about if the UK government decides to 'take back control' but then listens to the business community and demographers and keeps net migration at current levels with broadly the current mix of skilled/unskilled labour? Also OK with you?

Or is this whole strawman about 'deciding' just cover for 'I don't like immigration'?

I fully acknowldge that business want cheap labour and don't want the cost of training UK people: also, of course, an expanding population allows for sale growth without any actual innovation and effort from the management team : they of course will get bigger bonuses whilst the workers wages will stagnate or fall.

There might be a demographic problem in 30 years or so but I see no point making it worse now by importing people who will be 60is then and part of the problem.
I belive that automation/robots/driverless cars/medical advances etc will become a reality by then : OK you don't and think that innovation is coming to an end, but we have to disagree there.

I want a stable population with decent housing, transport and a few wild place left: ok its not the problem in scotland and I accept that you may want a few million non scots to join you.

I want to decide our tax rates and issues, our laws, our 'human rights' who we can excel and who we welcome and want parliament to rules us however badly
I don't want be part of a protectionist trading block.

I do want to preserve the essential british western culture but so do you

But I want thebest for the people of the UK and an ever expanding population doesn't do that.

BobQ

Cornucopia wrote: »

Originally it was a comment by a guest on Newsnight that she felt that the Brexit decision had robbed her generation of the possibility of partying in Ibiza.

In the context of this thread, the term "EU Citizenship" has been mentioned several times, despite being somewhat meaningless. I was wondering what people meant by the term? Holidays? Overseas working? Freedom to relocate?

Well if you do not understand a term why call it meaningless. It is defined in the EU Treaty and relates to voting rights in EU elections, freedom of movement throughout the EU and the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of nationality. So it covers all of those things and more.

Since we are leaving why would we want or expect EU Citizenship but if we did we would surely be expected to reciprocate.