Labour people, its time to dump Corbyn

padington

kinger101 wrote: »

He'll be in office at the next general election. The only way he can be removed is by leading Labour to their worst defeat in history. I'm not convinced he'll leave then either. Momentum will just think the working class need re-educating.

I think a reorientation to the liberal democrats is a great thing really if it happens . They haven't been corrupted by special interest groups like the unions or big business and draw from the more healthy paradigm of Liberalism instead of built on Marxist sand castles of failure.

We should applaud momentum and Corbyn, probably the best thing to ever happen to British politics, in the long run. They may have united the liberal moderate left and liberal moderate right under one banner which could prove a healthy new dynamic for British politics over the next 100 years.

Moby

Must admit I'm tempted to go Lib Dem for all the reasons already given but the Lib Dems have never understood the importance of having a union movement. They see just the extremists not the good work that goes on protecting peoples work rights.

Things are changing, traditional left right politics seems to be being replaced by brexit v remain progressive v socially conservative divides. I have never been so conscious of a divided country.

The Labour moderates/centre in the North and Midlands are in a real bind. They are getting eaten from both ends. They have the socially conservative Brexiteers in their own constituencies to contend with and Momentum in control of their own party machine. I know I'm one of these moderates.:eek:

Our electoral system is highly unforgiving to third parties though. Remember the SDP! My view is this....... the current electoral system demands that those with moderate views vote depending on who has the best chance in any particular constituency of challenging the tea party types (an electoral pact). That way you are at least making your voice heard more efficiently.

For me the long term answer has to be electoral reform. That would force Govmts to seek consensus more. The NHS, Social Care, Education, Housing, Criminal Justice etc are highly vulnerable to the vagaries of whatever short term advantage can be milked by a Govmt in power. There is no long term certainty of funding or policy to develop strategy at present. Govmts tend to do things which give them a short term political advantage. Cameron didnt really think an EU referendum was in the best interests of the country......he thought it was in the best interests of his party......to shoot the UKIP fox! He got it spectacularly wrong of course but my point is his policy was driven by personal tactical advantage rather than the country's strategic interests. In my own area of specialism, Criminal Justice......... the Govmts prison policy is an absolute disaster. Locking up more young men than the rest of Europe in Victorian warehouses, cut the numbers of staff looking after them and reduce the conditions for those that remain through privatisation may be expedient if you are in a world of austerity and appeal to the hang em and flog em types. It doesnt work though and people die as a result; long term it makes prison into a warehouse of crime and the people responsible are never held to account but are shifted to say....the Dept of Transport where they can start spreading their idealogical message of divisivness all over again.

ruggedtoast

Moby wrote: »

Must admit I'm tempted to go Lib Dem for all the reasons already given but the Lib Dems have never understood the importance of having a union movement. They see just the extremists not the good work that goes on protecting peoples work rights.

Things are changing, traditional left right politics seems to be being replaced by brexit v remain progressive v socially conservative divides. I have never been so conscious of a divided country.

The Labour moderates/centre in the North and Midlands are in a real bind. They are getting eaten from both ends. They have the socially conservative Brexiteers in their own constituencies to contend with and Momentum in control of their own party machine. I know I'm one of these moderates.:eek:

Our electoral system is highly unforgiving to third parties though. Remember the SDP! My view is this....... the current electoral system demands that those with moderate views vote depending on who has the best chance in any particular constituency of challenging the tea party types (an electoral pact). That way you are at least making your voice heard more efficiently.

For me the long term answer has to be electoral reform. That would force Govmts to seek consensus more. The NHS, Social Care, Education, Housing, Criminal Justice etc are highly vulnerable to the vagaries of whatever short term advantage can be milked by a Govmt in power. There is no long term certainty of funding or policy to develop strategy at present. Govmts tend to do things which give them a short term political advantage. Cameron didnt really think an EU referendum was in the best interests of the country......he thought it was in the best interests of his party......to shoot the UKIP fox! He got it spectacularly wrong of course but my point is his policy was driven by personal tactical advantage rather than the country's strategic interests. In my own area of specialism, Criminal Justice......... the Govmts prison policy is an absolute disaster. Locking up more young men than the rest of Europe in Victorian warehouses, cut the numbers of staff looking after them and reduce the conditions for those that remain through privatisation may be expedient if you are in a world of austerity and appeal to the hang em and flog em types. It doesnt work though and people die as a result; long term it makes prison into a warehouse of crime and the people responsible are never held to account but are shifted to say....the Dept of Transport where they can start spreading their idealogical message of divisivness all over again.

You will come round.

Oh yes.

ukcarper

ruggedtoast wrote: »

You will come round.

Oh yes.

Can't speak for Moby but as a moderate Labour supporter I won't vote for Corbyns Labour Party and am fearful that the party will never get into power again. This is what you and momentum do not understand.

CLAPTON

Moby wrote: »

Must admit I'm tempted to go Lib Dem for all the reasons already given but the Lib Dems have never understood the importance of having a union movement. They see just the extremists not the good work that goes on protecting peoples work rights.

Things are changing, traditional left right politics seems to be being replaced by brexit v remain progressive v socially conservative divides. I have never been so conscious of a divided country.

The Labour moderates/centre in the North and Midlands are in a real bind. They are getting eaten from both ends. They have the socially conservative Brexiteers in their own constituencies to contend with and Momentum in control of their own party machine. I know I'm one of these moderates.:eek:

Our electoral system is highly unforgiving to third parties though. Remember the SDP! My view is this....... the current electoral system demands that those with moderate views vote depending on who has the best chance in any particular constituency of challenging the tea party types (an electoral pact). That way you are at least making your voice heard more efficiently.

For me the long term answer has to be electoral reform. That would force Govmts to seek consensus more. The NHS, Social Care, Education, Housing, Criminal Justice etc are highly vulnerable to the vagaries of whatever short term advantage can be milked by a Govmt in power. There is no long term certainty of funding or policy to develop strategy at present. Govmts tend to do things which give them a short term political advantage. Cameron didnt really think an EU referendum was in the best interests of the country......he thought it was in the best interests of his party......to shoot the UKIP fox! He got it spectacularly wrong of course but my point is his policy was driven by personal tactical advantage rather than the country's strategic interests. In my own area of specialism, Criminal Justice......... the Govmts prison policy is an absolute disaster. Locking up more young men than the rest of Europe in Victorian warehouses, cut the numbers of staff looking after them and reduce the conditions for those that remain through privatisation may be expedient if you are in a world of austerity and appeal to the hang em and flog em types. It doesnt work though and people die as a result; long term it makes prison into a warehouse of crime and the people responsible are never held to account but are shifted to say....the Dept of Transport where they can start spreading their idealogical message of divisivness all over again.

interesting but 100% predictable, that your post doesn't mention the VICTIMs of crime only sympathy for the criminals,

it doesn't mention the Hoyles clear and unambiguous statement that the RMT's aim is NOTHING to do with safety and EVERTHING to do with trying to bring down the government : no sympathy for passenger their either


but thats as expected.

ruggedtoast

ukcarper wrote: »

Can't speak for Moby but as a moderate Labour supporter I won't vote for Corbyns Labour Party and am fearful that the party will never get into power again. This is what you and momentum do not understand.

Yes. This is a terrible time for you Blairosaurs. You have polished your D-Ream CDs and laundered your Oasis t-shirts. But Corbyn is immovable because the world had moved on.

There is simply no appetite for a return to faux socialist neoliberalism. That duck had squawked.

Young people are tired of being sold a sop, tired of being sold down the river to show patriotism toward a country that shows them none in return, and tired of commemorative biscuit tins.

Now the Blairites are crushed and the public is becoming reassured that a vote for Labour is not actually a vote for Bomber Blair and Mandelslime, and the polls are surging.

Just think. You and Moby could be toasting a fully socialist government presiding over full nationalisation of the trains and NHS, a withdrawal British troops from the Middle East, and the dismantling of the Royals in just a few years.

You must be delighted!

antrobus

Moby wrote: »

... In my own area of specialism, Criminal Justice......... the Govmts prison policy is an absolute disaster. Locking up more young men than the rest of Europe in Victorian warehouses, cut the numbers of staff looking after them and reduce the conditions for those that remain through privatisation may be expedient if you are in a world of austerity and appeal to the hang em and flog em types....

It's not this Goverments's policy that is so much the problem. The big increase in the prison population largely took place in the 2001-2010 decade - 'tough on crime' and so forth.

Honey_Badger

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Now the Blairites are crushed and the public is becoming reassured that a vote for Labour is not actually a vote for Bomber Blair and Mandelslime, and the polls are surging.

That surge leaves Labour still 9% behind the Tories?

Corbyn's personal approval rate is trailing by 26% compared to May's one.

To me it still looks pretty disastrous, Labour should be ahead in the polls at this stage to stand any chance of winning.

antrobus

Honey_Badger wrote: »

...Corbyn's personal approval rate is trailing by 26% compared to May's one.....

Corbyn's personal approval rate was minus 26% in the Opinium Dec poll. Compared to only minus 20% In Nov. Whatever is 'surging' it ain't Mr Corbin.

Honey_Badger wrote: »

..To me it still looks pretty disastrous, Labour should be ahead in the polls at this stage to stand any chance of winning.

Opinium have tended to show smaller Con leads than the other polls. Perhaps they're right, and the others are wrong. But the accepted wisdom is that an opposition needs to have a healthy lead to have a chance of winning. Being 7% behind simply means that Labour will lose the election, as opposed to losing it badly.

ukcarper

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Yes. This is a terrible time for you Blairosaurs. You have polished your D-Ream CDs and laundered your Oasis t-shirts. But Corbyn is immovable because the world had moved on.

There is simply no appetite for a return to faux socialist neoliberalism. That duck had squawked.

Young people are tired of being sold a sop, tired of being sold down the river to show patriotism toward a country that shows them none in return, and tired of commemorative biscuit tins.

Now the Blairites are crushed and the public is becoming reassured that a vote for Labour is not actually a vote for Bomber Blair and Mandelslime, and the polls are surging.

Just think. You and Moby could be toasting a fully socialist government presiding over full nationalisation of the trains and NHS, a withdrawal British troops from the Middle East, and the dismantling of the Royals in just a few years.

You must be delighted!

Not and never have been a Blairite but momentum does not represent the majority of Labour voters. I'm just fed up with middle class socialists who have no experience of the things effecting working class voters telling me what is best for me.

We will have to wait until the general election to see if you are right but I will be extremely surprised if he can get enough new people out to replace the existing Labour voters that will not vote for him let alone the thousands extra would need to get elected.

By the way why do you think he will help young people at the expense of older people he has already said he would protect the triple lock.