Labour people, its time to dump Corbyn

padington

The country needs a decent opposition, we're going to the dogs. Brexit is a fools paradise and we need someone capable of fighting this nonsense.

Let's unite under one banner, to remain and reform the one union that really counts in a globalised world of financial capital that can play countries off against each other unless they stand together.

The first thing to do though is to dump man that partly got us in this mess, Jeremy Corbyn.

CLAPTON

All the 'successful' left wing parties have started by crushing democracy

kabayiri

Yes!

Labour should dump Corbyn and bring back Ed Balls, that silky ballroom dancer!

Oh, wait a minute. Didn't Ed B call out Freedom of Movement back in 2010? Why yes he did.

Principles or power....what do you want?

Jason74

kabayiri wrote: »

Yes!

Labour should dump Corbyn and bring back Ed Balls, that silky ballroom dancer!

Oh, wait a minute. Didn't Ed B call out Freedom of Movement back in 2010? Why yes he did.

Principles or power....what do you want?

Some kind of compromise between the two is generally the best way forward. Of course, give up too much of what you believe in, and there's not really any point having power in the first place . But stick slavishly to a set of "principles" regardless of the wider mood in the country, and you are destined never to get near power. And unless you are a party like UKIP that has a focus on a narrow range of policies and can use an element of popularity to move those who will win power in your direction, then that approach is the definition of pointlessness.

And of course in Corbyn's case, policy isn't his only problem. His total lack of leadership skills are also evident, along with a past that in and of itself makes him unthinkable as a potential prime minister, and a lack of personal appeal outside of those already highly sympathetic to his cause.

When you put all of that together, of course its time to ditch Corbyn. But it was time to ditch Corbyn twelve Months ago, and six Months ago and they didn't. And it will still be time to ditch Corbyn in another 6 Months, and another 12 months, and they still wont. And so Labour will limp along until 2020, when the inevitable drubbing leaves them with a choice of ditching Corbyn and his leftist approach, , or fading away as an electoral force over the next 10-20 years

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

kabayiri wrote: »

Principles or power....what do you want?

Well that is an excellent question.

And one which is being discussed already with articles such as....

There is no evidence - literally none at all - to say that anyone being hurt by downward pressure on their wages thanks to immigration is suffering a bigger hit to their wallets than the one they will suffer if Britain leaves the single market.

When Labour MPs talk about the "progressive case" for ending free movement, what they really mean is the "electoral case": they think the party can't win without ending free movement. They secretly believe that the economic hit and the policy choices that will force upon them will limit the scope of what left-wing governments can achieve - but their alternative is achieving nothing at all.

There isn't a progressive case for ending free movement

The problem of course is that [STRIKE]left wing[/STRIKE] all governments really, really, really need a healthy and prosperous economy in order to both spend their way into fulfilling those pesky social care manifesto commitments for an ageing population and not radically increasing the taxes required to service the national debt burden on a per person basis.

Both of which become exponentially harder to achieve if we leave the free market and abandon free movement...

Which is why even the Tories are now planning ways to quietly ensure lots of low skilled immigration remains after Brexit so the country can keep growing.

The National Institute for Economic and Social Research said last week that if numbers fall by 91,000 a year a "middle range" Brexit GDP will be 3.4% lower in 2030 than it would have been.

"At some point they are going to have to bite the bullet and tell the public that controlling immigration doesn't really mean having an impact on the numbers,"

http://news.sky.com/story/government-working-to-avoid-labour-shortages-post-brexit-10697547

All of the post-Brexit survey data points to the same conclusion - people voted emotionally rather than logically....

The vote for Brexit was fuelled by poorer voters feeling they had very little control over immigration, coupled with a more general mistrust of politicians and officials, according to new research into attitudes before the referendum.

The study, carried out for the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, presents a wider narrative of voters being increasingly motivated by emotion, rather than economic choices, something the researchers said could point to a future in which populist parties thrive.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/15/poorer-voters-worries-immigration-fuelled-brexit-vote-study-finds

Which really leaves politicians with very few choices to be honest...

1) You can indulge in dishonest, emotive, populist rhetoric in order to achieve the short term goals of gaining support for the movement or election - while knowing most of the promises you made to get that support cannot actually ever be delivered - as the Brexiteers have done and Labour is now talking about doing.

2) You can play the honest but probably ineffective long game in opposition - pointing out the truth and facts while waiting for the inevitable failure of your opponents who did play the dishonest populist short term game - and for the anger the voters will inevitably feel when they realise they've been betrayed - essentially the current Lib Dem strategy.

or

3) You can 'do a Theresa' and keep things so vague that nobody can ever hold you to a promise - talk about 'taking back control' or 'brexit means brexit' - while watering it down as best you can. As she knows full well these platitudes actually mean trying to keep as close to the status quo as possible - while making enough public statements of meaningless nonsense that the tabloid reading masses remain suitably befuddled as to not notice what you're really doing - ie... accepting economic reality and the need for high levels of migration while sneakily repackaging it as something else....

It seems unlikely that any of this will end well - as it also seems unlikely that any politician can now do what needs to be done - which is to educate the British public about the consequences of their actions.

Not in this new age where the triumph of emotion over reason is so widely celebrated...

So it seems likely the voters will just have to learn the hard way that having cake and eating it is not actually a valid strategy for life.

Moto2

We're an era of extreme politics driving the various parties, Corbyn is extreme alright, just not the right extreme for now.

BobQ

CLAPTON wrote: »

All the 'successful' left wing parties have started by crushing democracy

Have there been any successful left wing parties?

BobQ

It is rare that one gets to elect a Government that stands on principles which then goes on to deliver things based on their principles without compromising them.

If you want to enact political change (be it local or national) you need to realise that espousing principles may not be enough to get you elected and that without being elected, the merits of those principles will never get tested. The alternative is to temper those principles with pragmatism so that they appeal to the majority and get elected. Then you can effect change and implement those principles pragmatically.

Cynical maybe but it is politics.

Corbyn is an idealist who will not get elected. There are no end of political pragmatists around (in various parties) that know what to say and do to get elected and one always succeeds.

So yes Corbyn needs to be ditched, not because of his party's policies or principles but because he cannot lead and cannot get elected, so ultimately will let down his core supporters.

mrginge

padington wrote: »

The country needs a decent opposition, we're going to the dogs. Brexit is a fools paradise and we need someone capable of fighting this nonsense.

Let's unite under one banner, to remain and reform the one union that really counts in a globalised world of financial capital that can play countries off against each other unless they stand together.

The first thing to do though is to dump man that partly got us in this mess, Jeremy Corbyn.

Jeremy Corbyn has been elected as labour leader twice now with huge majorities.

There will be no dumping. Go join the lib dems if you don't like it.

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Well that is an excellent question.

And one which is being discussed already with articles such as....


There isn't a progressive case for ending free movement

The problem of course is that [STRIKE]left wing[/STRIKE] all governments really, really, really need a healthy and prosperous economy in order to both spend their way into fulfilling those pesky social care manifesto commitments for an ageing population and not radically increasing the taxes required to service the national debt burden on a per person basis.

Both of which become exponentially harder to achieve if we leave the free market and abandon free movement...

Which is why even the Tories are now planning ways to quietly ensure lots of low skilled immigration remains after Brexit so the country can keep growing.


http://news.sky.com/story/government-working-to-avoid-labour-shortages-post-brexit-10697547

All of the post-Brexit survey data points to the same conclusion - people voted emotionally rather than logically....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/15/poorer-voters-worries-immigration-fuelled-brexit-vote-study-finds

Which really leaves politicians with very few choices to be honest...

1) You can indulge in dishonest, emotive, populist rhetoric in order to achieve the short term goals of gaining support for the movement or election - while knowing most of the promises you made to get that support cannot actually ever be delivered - as the Brexiteers have done and Labour is now talking about doing.

2) You can play the honest but probably ineffective long game in opposition - pointing out the truth and facts while waiting for the inevitable failure of your opponents who did play the dishonest populist short term game - and for the anger the voters will inevitably feel when they realise they've been betrayed - essentially the current Lib Dem strategy.

or

3) You can 'do a Theresa' and keep things so vague that nobody can ever hold you to a promise - talk about 'taking back control' or 'brexit means brexit' - while watering it down as best you can. As she knows full well these platitudes actually mean trying to keep as close to the status quo as possible - while making enough public statements of meaningless nonsense that the tabloid reading masses remain suitably befuddled as to not notice what you're really doing - ie... accepting economic reality and the need for high levels of migration while sneakily repackaging it as something else....

It seems unlikely that any of this will end well - as it also seems unlikely that any politician can now do what needs to be done - which is to educate the British public about the consequences of their actions.

Not in this new age where the triumph of emotion over reason is so widely celebrated...

So it seems likely the voters will just have to learn the hard way that having cake and eating it is not actually a valid strategy for life.

so they are claiming the GDP would be worse off by 3.4% over the next 13 years
that about 0.26% per annum
how often has their forecasts been correct to 0.26% ?

plus of course they are assuming our population will be over a million smaller that overwise : this about 1.8% less than planned so the claimed change in per capita GDP is negligible.


so Hamish claims that while we will be BETTER off than now but just maybe a minute bit worse off than we MIGHT have been, then the UK will come to an evil end.

Absolute hysteria :

dis graceful misrepresentation

padington

mrginge wrote: »

Jeremy Corbyn has been elected as labour leader twice now with huge majorities.

There will be no dumping. Go join the lib dems if you don't like it.

I just might.

I was at a north London party tonight, the whole room was unanimous that the lib dems were the only way forward now.

Labour are dead with Corbyn.