Labour people, its time to dump Corbyn

movilogo

Thread title should read

Labour people, it is time to dump Labour
and look for the alternative

Moby

CLAPTON wrote: »

interesting but 100% predictable, that your post doesn't mention the VICTIMs of crime only sympathy for the criminals,

it doesn't mention the Hoyles clear and unambiguous statement that the RMT's aim is NOTHING to do with safety and EVERTHING to do with trying to bring down the government : no sympathy for passenger their either


but thats as expected.

Clapton as usual you misread my post or perhaps more accurately chose to misread it for your own purposes.....I was using Criminal Justice policy as an example of how Govmts are encouraged to think short term for their own political advantage. I wasn't talking about the victims of crime or the RMT, rail passengers etc because those subjects were not relevant to the point I was making.

Moby

antrobus wrote: »

It's not this Goverments's policy that is so much the problem. The big increase in the prison population largely took place in the 2001-2010 decade - 'tough on crime' and so forth.

It started before Blair... Michael Howard had a lot to do with it..... I'm making the point though that we lurch from one crisis to another due to short term expediency. A govmt that was forced to be more consensual and think strategically eg in this example realise that better prison conditions, safer prisons with proper education is the right thing to do long term for everybody including victims and go ahead and press on with it while ignoring the brickbats from the tea party Clapton types.......Britain would be a better place. People in my area are scared to say what they really think because they get accused of being soft on criminals.

ruggedtoast

A lot of crimes in the UK aren't even crimes in other countries.

As far as the Claptons are concerned being poor is already a borderline criminal act. Any further aberrant behaviour should be responded to by a flogging and deportation to the colonies.

CLAPTON

Moby wrote: »

Clapton as usual you misread my post or perhaps more accurately chose to misread it for your own purposes.....I was using Criminal Justice policy as an example of how Govmts are encouraged to think short term for their own political advantage. I wasn't talking about the victims of crime or the RMT, rail passengers etc because those subjects were not relevant to the point I was making.

no, of course you weren't thinking about the victims of crime or the trotskyite RMT union bosses who are playing with the lives of the poor passengers
we need some long term thinking that punishes criminals and stop the RMT striking for political reason.
I don't see how strikes or prison riots are to the political advance of the government but I can see how they are to the political advance of the trots in the labour party

Jason74

Moby wrote: »

Clapton as usual you misread my post or perhaps more accurately chose to misread it for your own purposes.....I was using Criminal Justice policy as an example of how Govmts are encouraged to think short term for their own political advantage. I wasn't talking about the victims of crime or the RMT, rail passengers etc because those subjects were not relevant to the point I was making.

Indeed. And on the subject of crime more specifically, those who talk about "just sympathy for the criminals" miss one rather important point. Which is of course that one of the biggest ways that a system of punishment for offenders can be can be effective is to reduce the number of future victims. And to do that in a prison context, the people whose behaviour you have to change are those who have committed offences.

So it's not a case of helping victims or providing appropriate support to those who have offended to help them rehabilitate. doing the latter well is (short of locking people up for life for minor offences) the most effective way of providing the best possible outcome in terms of victims by ensuring that there are less of them in the first place.

Unfortunately of course, that doesn't fit with the narrative that some like to pursue, so in spite of the evidence throughout the western world that a focus on support and rehabilitation provides the best outcomes for society, we'll continue to pursue the "tough on crime" approach as to do otherwise would appear "soft" and be a vote loser :wall::wall::wall:

CLAPTON

Jason74 wrote: »

Indeed. And on the subject of crime more specifically, those who talk about "just sympathy for the criminals" miss one rather important point. Which is of course that one of the biggest ways that a system of punishment for offenders can be can be effective is to reduce the number of future victims. And to do that in a prison context, the people whose behaviour you have to change are those who have committed offences.

So it's not a case of helping victims or providing appropriate support to those who have offended to help them rehabilitate. doing the latter well is (short of locking people up for life for minor offences) the most effective way of providing the best possible outcome in terms of victims by ensuring that there are less of them in the first place.

Unfortunately of course, that doesn't fit with the narrative that some like to pursue, so in spite of the evidence throughout the western world that a focus on support and rehabilitation provides the best outcomes for society, we'll continue to pursue the "tough on crime" approach as to do otherwise would appear "soft" and be a vote loser :wall::wall::wall:

if there is evidence (or even the prospect of the controlled trial) to reduce crime then clearly we should try it out and adopt if successful
it seems we have had several attempts over the years but without a great deal of success

whats the system : what are the results

Running_Horse

padington wrote: »

I was at a north London party tonight, the whole room was unanimous that the lib dems were the only way forward now.

A few more percent in the polls and they might just about manage to prop up another austerity Tory government for five years.

Moby

CLAPTON wrote: »

no, of course you weren't thinking about the victims of crime or the trotskyite RMT union bosses who are playing with the lives of the poor passengers
we need some long term thinking that punishes criminals and stop the RMT striking for political reason.
I don't see how strikes or prison riots are to the political advance of the government but I can see how they are to the political advance of the trots in the labour party

Strikes and prison riots are the fallout from failed Govmt policies, a symptom of a system that isnt working. I fully understand that instead of actually engaging with the point it is easier to chant 'trotskyite'. You tea party types like to keep life simple dont you. Having someone to hate gives you purpose;)

bobbymotors

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Yes. This is a terrible time for you Blairosaurs. You have polished your D-Ream CDs and laundered your Oasis t-shirts. But Corbyn is immovable because the world had moved on.

There is simply no appetite for a return to faux socialist neoliberalism. That duck had squawked.

Young people are tired of being sold a sop, tired of being sold down the river to show patriotism toward a country that shows them none in return, and tired of commemorative biscuit tins.

Now the Blairites are crushed and the public is becoming reassured that a vote for Labour is not actually a vote for Bomber Blair and Mandelslime, and the polls are surging.

Just think. You and Moby could be toasting a fully socialist government presiding over full nationalisation of the trains and NHS, a withdrawal British troops from the Middle East, and the dismantling of the Royals in just a few years.

You must be delighted!

Still won't put your money where your mouth is though will you?

You can have 6/1 now of you want, for charity, £600 of my money or £100 of yours?

You could even give momentum the money when (sic) you win