Labour people, its time to dump Corbyn

Thrugelmir

Spidernick wrote: »

No, because what we have at the moment is not the real Labour Party.

What is the real identity of the Labour party then. Blair attempted to modernise it but met huge resistance. The question has to be is the Labour party now redundant. As it's core ideals are based on an era that has long past.

BobQ

mrginge wrote: »

Jeremy Corbyn has been elected as labour leader twice now with huge majorities.

There will be no dumping. Go join the lib dems if you don't like it.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know."

mrginge

BobQ wrote: »

"There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know."

Not sure I really understand the point.

But anyway, the relevant question is how the removal of saint Corbyn is to be achieved. This is not a marginal issue, there is a huge mandate in place alongside rules which effectively rule out an internal coup.

Is an electoral massacre then the only catalyst for change now or is there some other route?

mwpt

Spidernick wrote: »

No, because what we have at the moment is not the real Labour Party. There's been a highly-successful coup by Momentum, who let's face it should form their own party, but thought it would be a good idea to do an 'M K Dons' and cheat their way into the big time, rather than starting at the bottom and building up their support. I, like many 'proper' Labour supporters, am playing the long game in the hope that it will turn out right eventually.

As for the LibDems: they sold their souls to the Devil for a brief shot of power and I wouldn't dream of voting for them outside a Richmond by-election scenario and I know many people who feel the same way.

This sounds almost religious. Imho, not the best way to decide who to elect.

Moto2

Thrugelmir wrote: »

What is the real identity of the Labour party then. Blair attempted to modernise it but met huge resistance. The question has to be is the Labour party now redundant. As it's core ideals are based on an era that has long past.

If Labour are to win the 2020 GE, they'll need to turn over seats like Reading and Warwick, in fact, anything that has a Tory majority of 6000 or less. They have zero chance of doing that right now. Being very popular within the party is useless.

For 2025
The Labour party need to have a long hard look at the voters that put them into power in 97 and ask them and voters like them what they want from a government, anyone that's actually a member of the party should be excluded from the analysis. Then go away and build the party around that.
It won't happen of course, Labour is destined to be a fringe movement when all the centre left party workers either give up or move to the Lib Dems or some other breakaway party.
It'll break my heart to put a cross on the ballot paper against anything other than the Labour candidate (which I've done since 1979) but it looks like that's what's going to happen next time around if things don't massively change.
If the Labour party lose the likes of me and my peer group, it'll be an awful long time before they rise again IMO.
So long, that I doubt I'd ever see it.

Doshwaster

CLAPTON wrote: »

what do you mean by social conservatives?

Social (small "c") conservatives exist within Labour (especially in working class areas in the north), older Tories and particularly UKIP. They favour "traditional family values" over more modern liberal views on human rights, same sex marriage and multiculturalism etc. They tend to be more religious (see the Tea Party in the US) and were far more likely to vote to to leave the EU.

westernpromise

The main benefit of voting Labour is that you get permission to feel envy and spite towards people who have worked harder than you, who have taken more risks than you and who have been prepared to do without things now to get on later. For a certain type of individual this is very important- more important than the actual election result.

Moto2

westernpromise wrote: »

The main benefit of voting Labour is that you get permission to feel envy and spite towards people who have worked harder than you, who have taken more risks than you and who have been prepared to do without things now to get on later. For a certain type of individual this is very important- more important than the actual election result.

It's far simpler than your analysis but I don't have the time or crayons to explain it to you.

Thrugelmir

Moto2 wrote: »

For 2025
The Labour party need to have a long hard look at the voters that put them into power in 97 and ask them and voters like them what they want from a government,

Will be a different generation of voters by then. Times will have no doubt have moved on. The 2016 winter of discontent. Will be a first introduction to the mindset of the Unions for many people. Some of us haven't forgotten nor ever will. May well send Labour back to those dark days preceding 1997.

BobQ

mrginge wrote: »

Not sure I really understand the point.

But anyway, the relevant question is how the removal of saint Corbyn is to be achieved. This is not a marginal issue, there is a huge mandate in place alongside rules which effectively rule out an internal coup.

Is an electoral massacre then the only catalyst for change now or is there some other route?

I agree. The problem is that the people now running the Labour Party are blind to the fact that they are heading for a massive electoral defeat: they just do not get it. I take it for granted that under present Leadership they will suffer that electoral massacre (perhaps their last stand).

The problem they have now is even if Corbyn suddenly saw the light and resigned (which is most unlikely I agree), their "cabinet in waiting" is composed of the Z team. It would take a real devotee to believe they were electable before 2025.

Sadly the Labour right are also in denial, waiting for something to happen. Now would be the time to re-align, form a credible Parliamentary opposition and be prepared to go to the country. Instead they just sit and loyally await their pensions.