Labour people, its time to dump Corbyn

westernpromise

But given the profile of the Labour party membership nowadays, no "normal" candidate could win unless they run unopposed. The loony left members will elect the loony left candidate.

Jason74

westernpromise wrote: »

But given the profile of the Labour party membership nowadays, no "normal" candidate could win unless they run unopposed. The loony left members will elect the loony left candidate.

Seriously, this has got to stop. That's twice in one day I find myself agreeing with you. . But being serious, you are sadly not far off the mark here. The changed profile of the members in the last couple of years means that the new members will always vote in the far left option. This is a direct result of the change in membership since 2015, as evidenced by the fact that Owen Smith actually won far more votes among pre 2015 members than Corbyn in the recent contest.

The only glimmer of hope for a functioning parliamentary democracy comes from the fact that any potential leader needs the support of 15% of MPs to get on the ballot. The MPs are unlikely to make the same mistake twice, so in the event of Corbyn standing down or being deposed, it's unlikely that another far left MP would get on the ballot.

This is of course a large part of why the left are sticking with Corbyn despite his clear failings. They know full well that they have no chance of getting another one of their own elected leader under the current rules, so would prefer to stick with Corbyn rather than have a more capable but less "ideologically sound" (to them !) alternative take over. If the left succeed in getting a rule change that reduces the MP threshold to get on the ballot, or the composition of MPs changes to more suit the left (the latter being quite likely in 2020) then Corbyn will likely stand down in favour of another leftist leader.

I appreciate that many people are greatly enjoying the current shambles, and personally have no problem with people hoping to never see another Labour Government. But the current situation is actually bad news for all of us. For our system to function, there needs to be a credible opposition to the Governent, who can at the very least hold them to account, and ideally present a plausible alternative if the incumbents screw up too much.

Labour at present aren't even close to doing this. That would be a problem at the best of times, but as we face the most important constitutional issue that most of us will see in most of our lifetimes, it's frankly criminal. For all of our sakes, I hope that they sort this mess out sooner rather than later, but frankly I'm not holding my breath.

westernpromise

It need not follow that no leftist will get on the ballot again. After the next GE Labour will be down to 180 seats or so meaning the nutter only needs 27 proposers. It will be dead easy to find 27 nutters to nominate a Marxist, who will then be elected leader on the votes of members who think Corby lost the election because he wasn't left wing enough. Remember Benn over thought exactly that and that 8 million votes for lunacy in 1983 was a finding endorsement.

Furthermore, nobody sensible such as Ed Balls or the other Miliband can expect to obtain a seat, as the local parties regard them as hard right. So there will be nobody credible on the ballot in 2020 to oppose the nutter.

Factor in that Labour needs to win seats like Northampton South to gain a 1-seat majority and it's clear they are doomed.

What I do not understand is this stuff about an effective opposition being important and beneficial. Whenever we have an effective opposition we always have an ineffective government. I fail to see what's beneficial about that.

fatbeetle

Labour's major problem is that it lost it's raison d'être, or rather, abandoned it. Labour was once the party of the working man and woman, it was voted for, and supported the ordinary bloke. But over the last decades, and accelerated by Bliar, it's become the party of the middle-class-guilt brigade. They were and are not interested in the working person, but had a real hard on for the minority groups.

When I was back in Wales last month, I was in the heartland of the old Labour movement, in among the vast council estates, where my mother had lived. The change in political thinking, from "put a red rosette on a donkey and we'll vote for it" to "all they (Labour) care about is the immigrants and lesbians" was as obvious as it was shocking.

What needs to happen is for Labour to stop grinding their gears over every minority issue, and Kensington dinner party talking point, and look to the working man and woman, (you know, those poor f*ckers who set up the Labour party,) and what their needs and concerns are. (I'll give you a clue, it isn't the shocking lack of single parent creche facilities availability to transgender Muslim refugees.)

Also, Labour need a realisation that the policies of Jeremy's golden youth, the policies which gave us the winter of discontent, will not cut the f*cking mustard, or be a vote winner in 2020.

Moby

I come from those very same Welsh estates, some of them the poorest in the country. Thatcher and years of tory neglect in a post industrial society are the real reasons for anger however. Blaming immigrants or the muslims is a nasty symptom of a much deeper problem. Totally agree Labour was too focussed on the aspirational middle classes under Blair but that was to take the centre ground from the tories and it worked. Labour does now need to refocus on the interests of the working class core areas. Things can change quickly these days. Theresa Mayhem is not turning out to be the competent 'safe pair of hands' I expected. She is clearly at sea on the health service and was bested at pmq's by the useless incompetent Corbyn this Wednesday. No one believes in her 'shared society' nonsense, its the same BS as Camerons 'Big society'. What matters are actions. She'll be judged on those. The NHS and Social Care are going to be huge issues and she doesnt seem to have them covered. All her experience was at the Home Office.
Also if Brexit goes badly Labour will benefit because of our political system. For UKIP to take over as the main opposition under first past the post is a hell of a stretch. The Labour MPs therefore know they have to do whatever it takes to protect their seats and wait Corbyn out. The 2020 election is clearly beyond them and they'll lose seats under Corbyn but there is no reason to think its terminal to the party altogether.There are people of talent, Keir Starmer, Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis, Hilary Ben, Caroline Flint, Yvette Cooper, Owen Smith, Rachel Reeves, Chukka Ummuna etc who are busying themselves on committees. Thats how the system works. Its what the tories did during the Blair years and you wait for the next generation to come through. Meanwhile Burnham will go for the Manchester Mayor job and Khan already has London, Rees Bristol etc. If Labour can use the cities as a base they can hopefully rebuild again.

westernpromise

Andy Burnham and talent do not belong in the same sentence. The man is a lackey and a jellyfish.

CLAPTON

Moby wrote: »

I come from those very same Welsh estates, some of them the poorest in the country. Thatcher and years of tory neglect in a post industrial society are the real reasons for anger however. Blaming immigrants or the muslims is a nasty symptom of a much deeper problem.

The welsh valleys and mining areas were all created by immigrants : only the mad left thinks there is some sort of entitlement to live in confort is a place past its sell by date.
The leftie narrative that it was worth saving at huge tax payer expense is a self evident nonsense.
Immigrants from all over the world manage to travel thousands of miles for a better life: the left discouraged the welsh to travel a few 10s or 100s of miles and blame Thatcher and the tories
In any event the tories weren't in power from '97 to 2010
Labour is the party of benefits and lack of aspiration and encourages wasted lifes waiting for some-one else to solve your problems.
Fortunately the harm labour does is mainly confined to the people with less to contribute in any case.

westernpromise

Yep. Basically your Welsh valleys Labour voter thinks the state should guarantee him a job for life within walking distance so that he is never in any circumstances expected or required to leave the Welsh valleys.

Well, wakey wakey, as Thatcher explained.

setmefree2

westernpromise wrote: »

Yep. Basically your Welsh valleys Labour voter thinks the state should guarantee him a job for life within walking distance so that he is never in any circumstances expected or required to leave the Welsh valleys.

Well, wakey wakey, as Thatcher explained.

Norman Tebbit and the Thatcher Government's "Get on your Bike" policy - which was cemented by Major and Blair - has created dreadful problems for this country. Here we are in 2017 with far too many people living in the SE - house prices are nuts and the transport system is on life support.

Better/any regional development over the last 35 years could have prevented this. Providing jobs in Wales and all over the UK would have benefited us all. Osborne and Cameron finally realized this. Thankfully, Osbourne has continued with this with the creation of the NP ThinkTank.

fatbeetle

CLAPTON wrote: »

The welsh valleys and mining areas were all created by immigrants : only the mad left thinks there is some sort of entitlement to live in confort is a place past its sell by date.
.

Your evidence for this?