sexual harassment on seetec course?

Undervalued

sangie595 wrote: »

So, in your world view, bullies should be safe if they travel in packs? Luckily, many employers wouldn't agree with you. There is nothing at all unfair about throwing out two people based on one persons complaint about inappropriate behaviour. It is not uncommon for bullies to act with other people, and that does not mean that an employer cannot take action. Nor does the fact that only one person complains mean that they shouldn't be believed.

No I didn't say that at all!

There most certainly is something unfair about throwing two (or one or twenty-five come to that) people out if the complaint is unfounded or exaggerated.

You seem to take the view that if somebody makes a complaint it should be believed without question and action taken against the subject of the complaint regardless of whether they are guilty or not!

sangie595

Yes, actually you did. You said "Throwing two people out based on one person's accusation with no evidence is not acting fairly." That pretty clearly states that you it is not fair to throw two people out if the complainant has no evidence. Situations of bullying are often without evidence, so employers must make decisions. And those decisions should not be based on the notion that two people are telling the truth if only one person makes a complaint. What is fair about that?

No I don't automatically assume that someone who makes a complaint is telling the truth. Nor do I automatically assume that because two people say the opposite, they are telling the truth. But the absence of evidence in such cases is not a reason to disbelieve someone either, nor to take no action.

Undervalued

sangie595 wrote: »

Yes, actually you did. You said "Throwing two people out based on one person's accusation with no evidence is not acting fairly." That pretty clearly states that you it is not fair to throw two people out if the complainant has no evidence. Situations of bullying are often without evidence, so employers must make decisions. And those decisions should not be based on the notion that two people are telling the truth if only one person makes a complaint. What is fair about that?

No I don't automatically assume that someone who makes a complaint is telling the truth. Nor do I automatically assume that because two people say the opposite, they are telling the truth. But the absence of evidence in such cases is not a reason to disbelieve someone either, nor to take no action.

Yes, they must make decisions based on the evidence they have available.

If one person says one thing and two others, interviewed separately, both say the opposite and largely corroborate each other then that is a significant factor the employer must take into account.

It is not the only factor obviously but it is a very significant one.

sangie595

Undervalued wrote: »

Yes, they must make decisions based on the evidence they have available.

If one person says one thing and two others, interviewed separately, both say the opposite and largely corroborate each other then that is a significant factor the employer must take into account.

It is not the only factor obviously but it is a very significant one.

As would them both looking like they are lying, their story being too pat, and a huge number of other things. Those would be just as significant. It's amazing perhaps, but when I have come across similar situations the offenders not only corroborate each other, but they appear to use exactly the same words. On occasions their statements are almost word for word the same. That does tend to tip off the employer that their version of events may be less than truthful. I agree that these kind of situations are never easy - although, unfortunately, they are all too common- but the reality is that doing nothing, whatever the employer decides to do, is rarely an option. The problem rarely goes away. That is why relocation is a favored option. Because if something goes wrong and the employer has done nothing, they are potentially facing some serious litigation.

sangie595

xapprenticex wrote: »

This is the point im making about you, you seem somewhat jealous of women who get complimented, you basically implied that they have no brains like "Hmmph well yeah they have great legs/looks and get compliments but I have a brain unlike them". You can have both you know.
.

I neither said, nor implied, any such thing. You, on the other hand, have made it very clear that you ONLY make personal comments about people when they welcome them, and you would never make such a comment about someone's looks if they were offended by the comment. So how's that going for you? I tell you I am offended by your innuendos about my looks and you repeat it. Hmm. So not really all that truthful?

ScorpiondeRooftrouser

sangie595 wrote: »

I have only just noticed the somewhat dim witted discussion of my personal working relationships and personal opinions. For the record, of course I don't find any of this even remotely amusing, and nor do I or any of my colleagues indulge in "banter" about other people's bodies, dress sense, skin colour,or any of the other subjects of "banter" that have no place in a working environment. That would be because we routinely see the damage that is done to people when this sort of atmosphere pervades, and we are the ones who have to pick up the pieces of people's shattered working lives. Perhaps if some pposters spent less time looking at women's legs, they might have a different perspective.

I find the comments of xapprenticex about me to be extremely offensive and highly personal. And actually, quite illuminating since this is exactly the sort of attitude that I spoken about here. Just because I happen to believe that this sort of behaviour has no place in the workplace, I must be an ugly woman that nobody wants to compliment. Thank you for making my case for me, whilst nevertheless demonstrating a total disregard for the feelings of others and a totally nasty streak that makes me wonder how many women have been the victim of your unwanted attention and been too afraid to say anything. Or do you just revert to nasty personal comments with everyone?

Your comments about me are the defence of every perpetrator. If a woman doesn't like your attitude, there must be something wrong with her. She must be ugly. It's all a laugh anyway, isn't it? She just has no sense of humour. I am sure that is exactly what those lads on the course will say. In great company, aren't you?

I am not even a woman, and yet they assume the same about me.

sangie595

ScorpiondeRooftrouser wrote: »

I am not even a woman, and yet they assume the same about me.

And apparently it is all part of a tried and tested plan to get them banned. Well, apart from the fact that it isn't tried, it isn't tested and I have no idea what they are talking about. Which wouldn't come as a surprise to me.

Ozzuk

xapprenticex wrote: »

Ups...



I'm calling B.S on that, that is NOT sexual harassment. There is also no requirement to make coffee for your colleagues when you go to get yours but daym.. it happens.

IMO the only people with issues are people who never get complimented themselves.

(this is regarding my comment NOT the op's situation before you or anyone else starts putting 9 plus 10 together and coming up with 21 (again))

Aren't you the chap that recently started a thread asking if you should compliment women you work with? Do you see yourself as some kind of Lothario spreading his love and charm around the office, women swooning at your feet hoping for a nice comment?

Perhaps to be less harsh you are confusing how you would talk to a genuine friend and how you should address colleagues. Banter/fun at the office is one thing, but making a sexual reference (like nice legs) is not appropriate and the sooner you learn that the less likely you are to find yourself in front of HR...

Would you say 'I really like your cleavage today?' No, of course you wouldn't. Its creepy, predator-like behavior and you've no way of knowing how the recipient really feels about it (unless they punch you).

cat_777

there was only 4 of us on the course so i knew that if i complained it would be extremely awkward for me to go back in and sit with them


thanks for the advice guys, i am going to write a letter of complaint. not sure where i to send it though
to the local office?

sangie595

cat_777 wrote: »

there was only 4 of us on the course so i knew that if i complained it would be extremely awkward for me to go back in and sit with them


thanks for the advice guys, i am going to write a letter of complaint. not sure where i to send it though
to the local office?

I am glad that you came back. I was concerned that the comments may have scared you off! I wouldn't have blamed you either, but I am afraid that women still have a way to go before people realise that personal comments to colleagues, or about colleagues, really don't fit in professional working environments.

You should complain to the training provider and copy in the people who sent you there. If toy don't have an address the referring organisation should have it.

It's very brave of you to complain. Many women are too intimidated to do it, and so it continues.

When you get a job, join a union ( you can just join one and you don't have to tell your employer or get their permission). That way, if anything like this ever happens agai, you will have someone to hold your hand and guide you through it.