sexual harassment on seetec course?

daytona0

xapprenticex wrote: »

And im sure your pity is much appreciated. Regards. :money:



Ha, well, if i were to make a comment regarding legs it would be someone i already know and I know what they are like. This, I have done, and it always goes down well :money::beer:

I just don't think that sangie and scorpio have that sort of working relationship with people. Where you can jokingly say that sort of stuff. Doesn't make them wrong, just probably a different mindset.

otherwise, its more, nice hair, nice dress, nice shoes etc if I dont know them. I wouldn't go up to a person I dont know or hardly know and say "You have great legs" unless it was out of work and i was in cheesy chat-up mode (I'm a legs man btw).

I think that's fine! EVEN IF there is no sexual undertone, there is nothing untoward in complimenting a colleague on their nice hair/dress/shoes! Just last week I complimented a colleague on her purple hair! She has little confidence because she is getting trained up constantly and has seizures every day! But I'm sure it made her day, and she looked lovely. I've got a partner so nothing was meant by it! But "nice legs" would have been odd. (but if I didn't have a partner.... haha)

Thanks for replying like a level headed individual rather than one of those triggered ......... Ill leave it there. :rotfl:

I think sangie and scorpio have a lot of problems and they have a very polarised view on this. Have tried to agree with them as much as possible, especially sangie because he/she is a top poster, but these situations are not as clear cut as OP's situation.

xapprenticex

Agreed with everything you've said regarding them both. I took it as them not being the kind of people to get complimented themselves and as a result have become jaded and triggered by the very thought of a filthy man complementing a women at work.

apparently You ONLY go to work to fulfill your job description, nothing more nothing less. right Führer?

seriously though im not knocking them for their view but i certainly wont be letting them tell me how to conduct myself and likewise, i wont tell them how to conduct themselves.

daytona0 wrote: »

I just don't think that sangie and scorpio have that sort of working relationship with people. Where you can jokingly say that sort of stuff. Doesn't make them wrong, just probably a different mindset.



I think that's fine! EVEN IF there is no sexual undertone, there is nothing untoward in complimenting a colleague on their nice hair/dress/shoes! Just last week I complimented a colleague on her purple hair! She has little confidence because she is getting trained up constantly and has seizures every day! But I'm sure it made her day, and she looked lovely. I've got a partner so nothing was meant by it! But "nice legs" would have been odd. (but if I didn't have a partner.... haha)



I think sangie and scorpio have a lot of problems and they have a very polarised view on this. Have tried to agree with them as much as possible, especially sangie because he/she is a top poster, but these situations are not as clear cut as OP's situation.

daytona0

ScorpiondeRooftrouser wrote: »

Oh, !!!!!!. The sad thing is you actually believe women like being told they look nice by you when they are at work. It would be nice to see if any women, any women at all, are willing to confirm this.

What sort of workplace is it that you claim this is acceptable in? I'm going to guess it's not anything professional.

I believe it, and I live it.

NeilCr

ScorpiondeRooftrouser wrote: »

It is absolutely not appropriate to comment on anybody's legs in a workplace.

I really do think that's an "it depends" thing. It depends on how well you know the person and your knowledge of them and their feelings. It's completely wrong to do so to anyone to whom it would be in any way unwelcome or you don't know

But for somebody you've known for a long time, get on well with and you've bantered with then why not. One of my colleagues where I volunteer always wears trousers - she came in in a skirt last week. Someone said "oh my God X has got legs" - someone else said how nice they were. She loved it and made everyone a cup of coffee for lifting her mood - she has been very ill and what was said - and the way it was said - was positive for her. And yes I do know that for a fact.

I went to another office for a meeting last week. An old friend of mine was there who I hadn't seen for a while. She's got a whole new hairstyle. So I said "loving your hair" - and she was well pleased. I'd have probably got it in the neck if I hadn't mentioned it

Having said that, the behaviour described in the OT is totally out of order and should be reported. Harassment is plain wrong and needs to be stopped. But, you do have to allow folks to have banter at work - it isn't just all about the work when you are there. Light hearted stuff that is not unwelcome lifts moods and makes people happier - which can be conducive to output too

cadon

The comments made by the boys were juvenile and clearly made the OP uncomfortable, but I'm not sure walking out of a course was the appropriate response. This behaviour went on over two days - did she make clear at any point that she found their behaviour inappropriate and wanted them to stop? If so, having failed to get them to behave like adults on a professional course, did she speak to the course leader/supervisor and ask for intervention?

It could have been possible to move and/or work with other people. Without knowing the nature or size of the course, it's hard to offer a solution that would have definitely worked, but I'm not hearing anything from the OP that suggested she tried to find a solution that enabled her to stay on the course.

You get idiots in all kinds of professional settings, so at some point you will have to learn how to deal with this behaviour. First step is informal action - you tell them bluntly that they're not funny and they need to stop. This is usually sufficient. If informal action doesn't help, the next step is to get someone more senior involved.

Walking out disadvantages your own learning and your own career - it should never be your go-to option. That is letting the idiots win.

theoretica

One of the problems is that people can be poor about telling what will or won't be acceptable to the person they are talking to (people all being different and what one person appreciates another won't)- and equally people are reluctant to tell the person who said something they stepped slightly over the line. No-one particularly likes being told they are in the wrong to have said something, and pointing it out makes for a bad atmosphere.

sangie595

theoretica wrote: »

One of the problems is that people can be poor about telling what will or won't be acceptable to the person they are talking to (people all being different and what one person appreciates another won't)- and equally people are reluctant to tell the person who said something know they stepped slightly over the line. No-one particularly likes being told they are in the wrong to have said something, and pointing it out makes for a bad atmosphere.

It can also make for a very threatening atmosphere. Despite "everyone being equal now" it is patent rubbish to believe the labelling on the tin. Girls are still brought up in a society that conditions them to act like girls, play with dolls in preparation for being mothers, and expect that their family will come before their career. Boys still play with guns, expect rough and tumble, and their behaviours to be explained as "boys will be boys" (and since we all know exactly what that term means, it says a lot about the socialisation of gender differences). Men who are the victims of bullying and harassment are often unable to say anything, and that is often demonstrated on these threads. But it is a double disadvantage for women because they are socially conditioned to react less aggressively (so make easier targets), and at the same time are most often physically afraid of men and what they may do if they stand up for themselves. That isn't a bad atmosphere, it is a scary atmosphere. And being told that they need to develop thicker skins, or that they are overreacting when they do stand up for themselves, not being believed or supported; these are all the things that keep women in their place.

Then there is all the name calling of women who do stand up for themselves, the words that I won't be using because I will certainly get banned for using them - but we all know what sorts of names get attached to women who stand up for themselves or others.

Yes, some women, a very few, get to the top despite everything (whilst often still being called those words behind their backs!). The fact that it is notable and newsworthy tells you that we are still a long way off equality. You or I may have the confidence to fight back (I am sort of assuming you are female), but the majority do not. And although all victims are not female, in my experience, the vast majority of them are. And whilst all perpetrators are not male, the vast majority of them are. These idiotic young men may not understand the fine art of social constructions and be able to hold a meaningful conversation about their impact on the workplace, but they instinctively know how the world is ordered and they act accordingly. If, as is actually quite likely if they picked on other men, they got laid out every time they tried it on (not that I am condoning violence), they would very quickly establish a new social order. Since that outcome is always a possibility when you bully other men, they focus on "the weaker sex".

And for many people, especially women, that is a very scary place to be. And why they would rather run away than challenge.

sangie595

I have only just noticed the somewhat dim witted discussion of my personal working relationships and personal opinions. For the record, of course I don't find any of this even remotely amusing, and nor do I or any of my colleagues indulge in "banter" about other people's bodies, dress sense, skin colour,or any of the other subjects of "banter" that have no place in a working environment. That would be because we routinely see the damage that is done to people when this sort of atmosphere pervades, and we are the ones who have to pick up the pieces of people's shattered working lives. Perhaps if some pposters spent less time looking at women's legs, they might have a different perspective.

I find the comments of xapprenticex about me to be extremely offensive and highly personal. And actually, quite illuminating since this is exactly the sort of attitude that I spoken about here. Just because I happen to believe that this sort of behaviour has no place in the workplace, I must be an ugly woman that nobody wants to compliment. Thank you for making my case for me, whilst nevertheless demonstrating a total disregard for the feelings of others and a totally nasty streak that makes me wonder how many women have been the victim of your unwanted attention and been too afraid to say anything. Or do you just revert to nasty personal comments with everyone?

Your comments about me are the defence of every perpetrator. If a woman doesn't like your attitude, there must be something wrong with her. She must be ugly. It's all a laugh anyway, isn't it? She just has no sense of humour. I am sure that is exactly what those lads on the course will say. In great company, aren't you?

theoretica

sangie595 wrote: »

...Since that outcome is always a possibility when you bully other men, they focus on "the weaker sex".

And for many people, especially women, that is a very scary place to be. And why they would rather run away than challenge.

I agree about this for the OP's situation. When I wrote I was thinking about the posters who are so sure they know that the comments they make are OK. I am pretty sure they won't think of themselves as bullies or people who would turn to physical violence and so won't consider your post applies to them.

sangie595

theoretica wrote: »

I agree about this for the OP's situation. When I wrote I was thinking about the posters who are so sure they know that the comments they make are OK. I am pretty sure they won't think of themselves as bullies or people who would turn to physical violence and so won't consider your post applies to them.

Oh. You mean the ones who would never make an unwelcome comment about a woman, because women are oh so flattered to be noticed by them. The ones who decided to make very unwelcome comments about me despite never having met me and certainly having no idea whether I would welcome being described as the sort of woman who never gets complimented and therefore become "jaded" because we aren't attractive enough to be noticed.

Humph. I have little interest in the personal appearance of people because my values are such that I prefer to see what kind of person they are, not what kind of wrapping they come in. So I don't know if I am attractive or not. Personally , I don't care either. And it isn't relevant to what I do at work. But what I do at work is work, and I am very good at it. That does get noticed and appreciated. But then, in my workplace people are appreciated for their brains and their skills, and nobody has time to look at their legs! Hopefully though, when xapprenticex and their friends are in need of a good representative, the union will send them a guy with great legs and no brains.