Debit Card Transactions

Melindray

See, my understanding is that debit cards were designed to allow a consumer to make an immediate payment to the merchant (rather than having to have actual cash) and because of that, once an amount is authorised, it is fixed and can't be edited/replaced ... this is what is confusing me because I cannot find any information anywhere which says that a debit card transaction can be edited/altered and the amount changed after the payment has been authorised, and if it could be altered after being authorised, surely that would mean the merchant could increase the amount by however much they felt like?

So, as I understand the process, which admittedly may be totally wrong ... but as soon as I authorise a debit card transaction that amount of money turns into a pending payment and leaves my available bank balance. I can't cancel a pending debit card payment and I can't access the money at all, the merchant has control over the transaction and can decide to cancel it or claim it. The pending payment is usually claimed immediately by the merchant so this stage of the process isn't usually noticed ... but Morrisons are "reserving" money from me before delivery, and then taking a different amount afterwards as a separate transaction ... and then I have to wait to get the first amount back ... so last time this happened, I was missing £86 for a week because Morrisons had "reserved" it, and Morrisons had also actually claimed £84 from me in a seemingly different transaction. If they just claimed the first transaction for the "reserved" amount, this wouldn't happen.

I've managed to cover the 'double-cost' so far, but my budget just doesn't have the room in it for this to be a regular thing.

Morrisons used to "reserve" just £1, and that would be a pending transaction for a week and would then drop back into my bank account ... not such a problem when it's just £1 that goes missing, but when it's the full cost of my shop I have to wait for ... it makes the service impossible for me to use because I need access to that money to pay other bills.

Morrisons online Terms and Conditions say they have the "absolute discretion" to "reserve" either the full estimated cost of my order OR £1 ... so I asked them to apply the £1 option as they used to do, but they have refused to do this and insist that every online customer is having the full estimated cost of their shop "reserved" (and that, for some reason I don't understand, the £1 "reserve" option is only ever used in addition to this when a customer also registers a new card on the account).

Re where the responsibility lies, it's not blame I'm looking to place .... I just want the problem sorted so I can do my shopping ... but I don't really know who is responsible for sorting it out, so I don't know who to approach ... my bank say Morrisons, and Morrisons seem to be building up to the conclusion that it's the bank's problem. Morrisons have admitted nothing and confirmed nothing - other than "their intent" is to use the "reserved" amount and take the final amount directly from that, that they don't know why this isn't happening, and that the Payments Team need to respond to their queries before I can have another reply. I am currently waiting for this to happen.

I am trying to go further up the food chain with the issue but they are not very co-operative about escalating my complaint ... so far I have a customer service manager speaking to me, but that's as far as I've gotten, and I only managed to get to this point after 3 days of being told the same thing by general customer service staff ... one of whom told me, in writing, that there was no point progressing my complaint because a manager would just give me the same information again ... so all I have been able to conclude so far is that they don't have the best customer service in the world.

King_Of_Fools

There is really no difference in how a debit card transaction or credit card transaction are handled - they can both offer the same mechanisms. It is just that this pending amount is far more noticeable with a debit card if you have limited funds in a bank account.

As you say, Morrisons used to reserve £1 and that was not being cancelled by the final transaction so they are probably doing nothing differently than before (other than now reserving the full amount). Either way, that does not rule our their staff not following the correct procedure or you bank not doing the right matching of transactions.

You are awaiting more information from Morrisons and there is probably not much more you can do now.

If you wanted to do a comparison you could try a Tesco online order. They reserve £2 and that matches for me. If you are left with £2 pending after you get the final charge then it would most likely be your bank that is doing something wrong.

mt99

Not sure if it helps but have you seen the moneysaving expert thread about this number 651073


I am not allowed to post the full link here maybe someone else with higher priviliges can.


Its entitled:


Visa Debit - just how long can they wait?

King_Of_Fools

mt99 wrote: »

Not sure if it helps but have you seen the moneysaving expert thread about this number 651073


I am not allowed to post the full link here maybe someone else with higher priviliges can.


Its entitled:


Visa Debit - just how long can they wait?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/651073

Melindray

Interesting thread, thanks for that ... so, in a nutshell, what I am gathering is that it basically comes down to transaction codes ... if the pending and actual transactions have the same code, the bank should match them up and then the final amount will 'become' the only transaction ... if the pending and actual transactions don't have the same code, then for some reason, the transactions are coming through the system from Morrisons' end of things separately ... have I got the right end of the stick there?

I have used Tesco in the past on occasion but I found Morrisons suits me better ... if Morrisons/the bank don't sort this out, guess I will just have to go back to Tesco again.

ASDA had a similar issue with 'double' payments (according to google) ... ASDA site says they changed their payment process to stop it happening; they "reserve" only £0.01 now.

mt99

You could try calling Visa help line (assuming it is a Visa Debit Card)


Tel: +44 (0)20 7795 5777 (enquiries)

King_Of_Fools

Melindray wrote: »

Interesting thread, thanks for that ... so, in a nutshell, what I am gathering is that it basically comes down to transaction codes ... if the pending and actual transactions have the same code, the bank should match them up and then the final amount will 'become' the only transaction ... if the pending and actual transactions don't have the same code, then for some reason, the transactions are coming through the system from Morrisons' end of things separately ... have I got the right end of the stick there?

I have used Tesco in the past on occasion but I found Morrisons suits me better ... if Morrisons/the bank don't sort this out, guess I will just have to go back to Tesco again.

ASDA had a similar issue with 'double' payments (according to google) ... ASDA site says they changed their payment process to stop it happening; they "reserve" only £0.01 now.

Yes, that is the idea.

Given this kind of problem seems to regularly pop up on the forums, I do not hold out much hope that it will ever be fixed. If the problem is at Morrisons end then you might find that the problem occurs some weeks but not others depending on who puts the final transaction through. If the problem is at the bank's end then you would probably have no hope of fixing it and it will affect other retailers too. You could try a different bank but there is no guarantee that would work either.

The only other "solution" would be to agree a £100 overdraft (or similar) to cover your weekly shop. This way you would still be able to draw funds from the account as your available balance would be £100 higher. However, your actual balance would never go negative so you would not be changed any fees.

mt99

Actually the more I think about this the more wrong it seems. Morrisons are effectively double-charging you (and everyone else using their online shopping service). The fact that they return the double-charge after a few days, and the fact that it's only the 'available balance' that gets reduced is neither here nor there - they shouldn't do it.


To my mind it now depends on how far you want to take this. You could, for example, do any of the following:


1. not shop there any more


2. continue to shop there but budget knowing how the system works


3. write a formal letter of complaint to Morrisons - you are more likely to get a sensible reply if you say how it affects you personally rather than a general whinge at the system. Tell them if you plan to do 4, 5 or 6 below.


4. ditto to Visa customer service


5. complain to Trading Standards that Morrisons are charging you double for your shopping


6. write to one of the 'Questions of Cash' columns in the Daily Newspaper Money Sections. Only write to one. Say how you always read their column, never thought you'd have to write etc etc. They will love a 'Morrisons charges double' headline and will definitely get an answer for you from them.


Let me know what happens!

Melindray

I've been with the same bank for like 20 years now, same debit card for the vast majority of that time, and no other retailers that I use are currently are causing me this problem. The only thing that has changed is the way Morrisons take their payments. Already have an overdraft that is at its limit, so that option isn't available to me unfortunately.

If this isn't fixed somehow, then:

1. Not shopping there will happen by default because I can't afford to pay a 'full deposit' for my shopping and then to provide the full cost again so the 'full deposit' can be returned to me.

2. Might be able to budget for it in advance for a short while, in order to find and use someone else, but there's no way this can be a permanent fix.

3. Already in the middle of a formal complaint with them now ... well, allegedly, I've asked for their complaints procedure several times, they didn't provide it, and I was told that it's an internal process and I can't have that document. (doesn't sound correct to me?)

4. Giving serious consideration to doing this to see if they can shed any light on it.

5. Yep, prepared to do that if necessary ... I think they are trying to evade consumer laws by saying that they only actually take one debit so it's okay, and by using the phrasing "the reserved amount", instead of calling it a full pre-payment/full deposit ... which is what it is in reality for me.

6. Will definitely consider this too ... one of my concerns is that Morrisons are not actually applying this change in T&Cs to every single one of their online customers ... in that, and forgive me if I sound paranoid, I think they may be targeting poorer areas where they have experienced higher numbers of failed payments. They also told their online customers via email that the change was to make their online store as secure as possible (I kept these and have copies) ... but that clearly isn't the motive behind the change at all, and the change to the T&Cs seems to have been made purely for the benefit of the business, and I quote: "Our payment process was updated in order to protect the business from having unnecessary failed payments in general" ... which I think sounds dodgy. Pretty sure a company isn't supposed to disadvantage their customers in order to protect the business.

I've just had a further reply from them, give me a moment and I will pop it up here.

Melindray

"Good afternoon XXX,

Further to your query, I can confirm that after the cut off point we reserve the full amount plus £1 or £2 for carrier bags and items priced by weight. On the day of delivery the reservation is then cancelled and the final amount will be debited from your account.

On occasions the reservation can take up to 2 working days to show in your available balance, however I can see that we did debit £84.11 from your account and can assure you that the £84.16 [sic: should be £86.16] will show back in your available balance within 2 working days. However, some banks may take longer.

There is the possiblity that the debit will go through and then the reservation is still pending therefore there is one transaction as being charged and one transaction as pending in your available balance. However we never take 2 payments, only 1 payments will be debited from your account.

If you require further information, then please contact the bank. I am sorry for any inconvenience caused and do hope this has provided some clarity. I am sorry for any confusion and can confirm that this process would be the same for future orders also.

Thank you once again for bringing this to my attention. I do hope this does not put you off from shopping with us online.

Kind regards,

Bradley Codd
Morrisons Online Customer Service Team"



Am I reading this wrong, or after days of constantly telling me that the final cost of my order is taken/subtracted from the "reserved" amount and this is only one transaction and is edited ... does this now say that they do in fact place two separate transactions on my card? and that this is okay because they only actually claim one transaction and only one is actually debited from my account?

They keep going on about how long it takes the bank to return my money from the pending transaction they create, and how this isn't in their control and can take longer than ... blahblahblah ... but THAT isn't the problem, the problem is they are putting two charges on my card in the first place, they can't seem to grasp that this is problem at all ... that if I don't have the money to cover both charges in the first place, it isn't going to matter how long it takes to return my money, I will incur bank charges!

Reached the stage now where I am tearing my hair out ... just ARGH!