Britain can be better off outside Europe

CLAPTON

BobQ wrote: »

That there would be some relaxation of freedom of movement and that the EU would realise that a one size fits all will not work on some issues like security and border control. Things like that. The concept of a first division is itself flawed. The EU needs to move to a more zonal approach. It may make sense for some nations to share a currency or a common travel area but applying that to a large group as diverse as Germany and Bulgaria is too problematic. Equally there are things that can be harmonised across the EU.

I doubt if anyone in the EU is considering any of your points above and I'm not sure even if they did, they would help the UK.
unless you are considering timescales of 20-30 years of course.

Thrugelmir

BobQ wrote: »

That there would be some relaxation of freedom of movement and that the EU would realise that a one size fits all will not work on some issues like security and border control. Things like that.

There's been thousands of people attempting to access the EU on a weekly basis for months now. Yet it's been individual countries that have made their own decisions to impose border restrictions etc. The EU's inability to face the challenges posed are bringing about it's own downfall. 6.500 people were rescued on Monday. How long before there's a humanitarian disaster of a huge magnitude while the EU stands by it's principled ideology. Refusing to revisit freedom of movement.

Sapphire

BobQ wrote: »

That there would be some relaxation of freedom of movement and that the EU would realise that a one size fits all will not work on some issues like security and border control. Things like that. The concept of a first division is itself flawed. The EU needs to move to a more zonal approach. It may make sense for some nations to share a currency or a common travel area but applying that to a large group as diverse as Germany and Bulgaria is too problematic. Equally there are things that can be harmonised across the EU.

Yes, exactly – and my point is that unfortunately the EU is unreformable. The EU bureaucrats are still doggedly pursuing the same path towards 'ever-greater political union', despite the growing and obvious signs that their 'project' will not work – not for a continent that has such a diverse group of sovereign nations, with distinct ideologies, cultures and histories, and with widely different economies and attitudes to work. One size definitely will not fit all in this case…

gfplux

Yes Britain can/could/might be better outside the EU.
Britain can only start that process of possibly being better when it is out.
The longer it takes to get out, the longer we put off envoking article 50 the uncertainty will put us further and further behind the starting line.
So We should hope that the politicians and civil servants get organised and are ready to negotiate leaving the sooner the better.
How long will it take for Britain to become "better" outside the EU I don't know but the sooner we start the better.

I have not changed my mind. I voted to remain but we have to be pragmatic and now get on with the job.
Do I think it will take a long time, yes I do. Do I think we should start as soon as possible, yes I do. Do I think it will be difficult, yes I do.

AnotherJoe

CLAPTON wrote: »

what changes were you hoping for?

given that the UK wasn't part of the 1st division wanting ever closer integration, why would you think we would have any influence at all?

Indeed, I'm old enough to recall all these type of arguments from first time round, which could be summed up as "you cant change the rules of a club you dont like unless you are in it" which always left me bemused, since why would you join a club whose rules you didn't like?

But that's what we did, it took 40 years to understand not only we couldn't change those rules but would get more that we didn't like and couldn't change l !

And yet still we hear the argument "better be in to change the rules than out".

mwpt

AnotherJoe wrote: »

But that's what we did, it took 40 years to understand not only we couldn't change those rules but would get more that we didn't like and couldn't change l !

And yet still we hear the argument "better be in to change the rules than out".

Can you give me some examples of rules that you didn't like? For example, I don't like that certain regulations mean I can't convert the garage at the bottom of my garden into a liveable annex. I have a few more examples of rules I don't like if you want to hear more.

AnotherJoe

mwpt wrote: »

Can you give me some examples of rules that you didn't like? For example, I don't like that certain regulations mean I can't convert the garage at the bottom of my garden into a liveable annex. I have a few more examples of rules I don't like if you want to hear more.

Any old Tom !!!! and Juan can come and fish in our waters. Why was that even in the EEC? No logic there other than greed.
Anyone can come here and claim benefits even for dependants that don't live here.
Uk citizens can be extradited even for things that aren't offences in the UK and without any checks on the evidence.
The U.K. Isn't free to set VAT on products as it wishes. Sanitary products for example.
Reducing the savings protection limit on UK banks.
Nanny knows best regulations on the power of vacuum cleaners and ovens.

Kohoutek

AnotherJoe wrote: »

But that's what we did, it took 40 years to understand not only we couldn't change those rules but would get more that we didn't like and couldn't change l !

Nice story except that's not what actually happened, e.g.

Euro opt-out
Schengen opt-out
Police and criminal justice opt-out
Ever closer union opt-out
Rebate
ECJ decision in favour of UK on euro clearing

mwpt

AnotherJoe wrote: »

Any old Tom !!!! and Juan can come and fish in our waters. Why was that even in the EEC? No logic there other than greed.

A couple of points. There is logic there. Shared fishing waters, it isn't just "them" coming into "our" fishing waters, it is the other way.

But also, are you a fisherman? If not, then why is this something that impacts you? How do you know enough about it to make a judgement that your day to day life is impacted? Did you wake up one day and trip over a fishing trawler in your back yard and decided enough was enough?

Anyone can come here and claim benefits even for dependants that don't live here.

The myth of the EU scrounger. EU workers contribute more to our economy than they take out. But how did you notice this in your daily life? Did you trip over an EU scrounger in your back yard and decide enough was enough?

Uk citizens can be extradited even for things that aren't offences in the UK and without any checks on the evidence.

I never noticed this law. Surprised you did. What happened in your daily life that led you to be concerned about this? Is it even true?

The U.K. Isn't free to set VAT on products as it wishes. Sanitary products for example.

I admit, this may be a small concern for my partner but I can't say she ever noticed it before the media splashed it about. Seems a relatively small thing to be concerned about. How did you notice it and how much impact does it have on your life?

Reducing the savings protection limit on UK banks.

Got any more detail on that? Is this a big deal in your life? I can't say it worries me much.

Nanny knows best regulations on the power of vacuum cleaners and ovens.

Standards are good when you buy and sell products in a single market. The UK imposes these standards too btw. Was this something that impacted your life dramatically? Do you have a very dirty floor with your new weak vacuum cleaner?

mrginge

Fortunately many people aren't so selfish as to only consider factors that directly affect them.