Labour want to ignore the will of the people...

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I understand that it's recess time, but it's very obvious now that the EU aren't prepared to negotiate anything at all until Article 50 is triggered. And many other countries like Canada aren't willing to negotiate with the UK until they know where the UK stands in terms of EU trade. So nothing much is going to get done anywhere and with anyone until Article 50 is invoked.

As I understood it, if the iscotland ref had been a YES, then they were going to take 18 months to leave: even though they had been planning the leave for 3o years and didn't even know what currency they were going to use:
we doing all right so far

LHW99

Bremainers are almost by definition far more confident about our place in the world and our abilities, we do not share a fear of embracing our own autonomy

Could that be Brexiters....?

BobQ

Conrad wrote: »

Problem is Remainers could not and cannot see the benefits, cannot envisage the huge opportunity before us and as such the remain views of Brexit would be at best timid, informed by anxiety and fear and lacking vision so I can't see the point of inviting such opinion.....................

You do have a point and I agree that some Remainers were so committed to the cause that this argument might apply to them.

Equally those who won the argument include people who are so obsessed with immigration that they want to send home people who were born here because of their skin colour or accent. That is not visionary either.

However, whatever their views, the idea that the views of 48% of the people should be ignored because of the way they voted, or that they are not entitled to an opinion is hardly democratic.

I for one think we have made a mistake but I accept the result and I still want to see us get the best deal for the country. If every opinion I (or the other 48%) express from now on can be dismissed as those of a Remainer and not treated on its merits we are heading for a very undemocratic society.

If the same zeal that the extremists used after the referendum to abuse blacks, poles, and those with unfamiliar accents, is to be turned on attacking anyone who expresses doubts about the Brexit cause, what wil that say about our once tolerant society?

CLAPTON

BobQ wrote: »

Y
If the same zeal that the extremists used after the referendum to abuse blacks, poles, and those with unfamiliar accents, is to be turned on attacking anyone who expresses doubts about the Brexit cause, what wil that say about our once tolerant society?

are you referring to the tolerant society that has discriminated against poor black african countries in favour of rich white christian european ones for more than 40 years : and they do not see this as discrimination.
is it those people you are worried about?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

BobQ wrote: »

I still want to see us get the best deal for the country.

As do I.

So of course that means campaigning to keep as much of the benefits of the EU/Single Market as we can so we can continue to enjoy the best of both Worlds.

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

As do I.

So of course that means campaigning to keep as much of the benefits of the EU/Single Market as we can so we can continue to enjoy the best of both Worlds.

so definitely against campaigning to trade with the whole world on an equal basis?

BobQ

mrginge wrote: »

Well done on completely missing the point.

The point being? That you can get the answer you want if you ask a loaded question? What does doing that prove?

So easy to make trite responses.....

BobQ

CLAPTON wrote: »

are you referring to the tolerant society that has discriminated against poor black african countries in favour of rich white christian european ones for more than 40 years : and they do not see this as discrimination.
is it those people you are worried about?

Here we go again....quoting out of context......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

CLAPTON

BobQ wrote: »

Here we go again....quoting out of context......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

what context is that?
the number of 'hate' crimes reported to police after brexit is something like 0.0001% of all crimes
the discrimination against poor african countries is a major daily occurance and has problably cause 100 of tousands of deaths and millions of migrants.

one fact is pro EU and one isn't

mrginge

BobQ wrote: »

The point being? That you can get the answer you want if you ask a loaded question? What does doing that prove?

So easy to make trite responses.....

Well it seemed quite obvious really,

Under mwpt's (and others) logic, if you voted remain then you voted for no changes to freedom of movement as you were happy with current immigration rules.

Under that logic, if you asked the question I outlined, then you would get at least 48% (all the remainers) plus a proportion of brexiters who voted leave for different reasons.

My assertion is that if you actually asked that question, the result would be nowhere near a majority for no change. This is because the remain camp are not simply a subset of the 'no change to immigration' set.
The two questions have some overlap but I guarantee that if you asked both questions independently you would get a number of people who voted to remain and also control immigration.

Saying 'that question wouldn't be allowed' is a kop out. It may not be allowed as a referendum question (although I don't see any bias tbh) but it is perfectly valid as a question to determine individuals opinions.

It's the same principle as asking independently the question 'would you like to stay in the free market'
Now I imagine most people would say yes to this, regardless of their remain/leave view.
And you would be very happy to accept that. So why is it so hard for you to believe that most people would (IMO) want to see some controls to immigration?

So what you need to do is understand that for most people the underlying decision to leave or remain is a result of multiple factors on both sides which balance out to a final position. if you ask a specific question about each factor individually the you would get a number of very different pictures. As has been pointed out multiple times though, in the real world it is total impractical to do this by holding a referendum. Hence why leave/remain is such a crappy choice.