Brexiters should be 'Ashamed of the harm to come"

CLAPTON

cells wrote: »

Its not the end of the world most likely the UK is going to have to tighten its belt a bit further one of the measures of which probably should be the removal of the triple lock. Pensions should go up with inflation no more.

The state pension age should rapidly (before 2020) increase to 67 and then 68 by 2025. If the old don't want the migrants to dilute the working to retired ratio then they are going to have to work longer themselves.

and you firm believe that there is no possibility of increasing the production of goods and service per working person.

I expect no less than a detailed 5 pages of maths to show that never, when you take all things into account including the price of houses in Trent, plus discounting the next 1000 years, and noting that all people are your cousins, has there been an increase in productivity except by way of economies of scale.

mayonnaise

Marktheshark wrote: »

Anyone else getting Bored of Hamish and his one man revolution to overturn the referendum using MSE as his chariot in to battle.

Bit of advice, it wont work.

No, but what I do get bored with is anyone not towing the 'Brexit is wonderful' line being painted as a sore, unpatriotic loser.
What I also get bored with is anyone standing up against bigotry and racism being painted as a sneering liberal elitist in an effort to silence opposing voices.
Bit of advice, it won't work.

Tromking

mayonnaise wrote: »

No, but what I do get bored with is anyone not towing the 'Brexit is wonderful' line being painted as a sore, unpatriotic loser.
What I also get bored with is anyone standing up against bigotry and racism being painted as a sneering liberal elitist in an effort to silence opposing voices.
Bit of advice, it won't work.

There are extremists on both sides, you happen to be one of the remain variety. Like most leftist blowhards you won't shut up, so when you say you won't be silenced then unfortunately you're right.

TrickyTree83

mayonnaise wrote: »

No, but what I do get bored with is anyone not towing the 'Brexit is wonderful' line being painted as a sore, unpatriotic loser.
What I also get bored with is anyone standing up against bigotry and racism being painted as a sneering liberal elitist in an effort to silence opposing voices.
Bit of advice, it won't work.

Evidence, evidence, evidence.

The only type of which we see on here is sneering liberal virtue signalling. There's no racism or xenophobia on here that I can see and if there is it'll be limited to 1 or 2 posters out of many, which the leave voters are probably against, at least I am. The liberal virtue signalling is by default bigoted, there was a new poster recently who was bigoted beyond belief, dismissing the views of everyone who voted to leave as racists, bigots, stupid, unclean, xenophobes, <insert derogatory term here>, etc... The worst the remain support appear to have to deal with on here is being called out on such things as the actual bigots and their constant virtue signalling.

CLAPTON

mayonnaise wrote: »

No, but what I do get bored with is anyone not towing the 'Brexit is wonderful' line being painted as a sore, unpatriotic loser.
What I also get bored with is anyone standing up against bigotry and racism being painted as a sneering liberal elitist in an effort to silence opposing voices.
Bit of advice, it won't work.

How is refusing to treat the people of black africa equally to the peoples of white christian europe standing up against bigotry and racism.
Still with your views you would have no trouble getting a job in the Lysenky Institute or in the social service department of Rotherham.

steampowered

Conrad wrote: »

As we said, history shows devaluation tends to benefit our economy, and never more so than now when we run such a hideous deficit, borrowing from future growth.

Services benefit totally as they are not import dependent

Poor old Remoaners, you just didn't get it

Personally I think the state of political discussion on here is really disappointing. Is it not possible to have an honest discussion which recognises and balances the facts on both side of the debate? Its a bit ridiculous to claim that all the positives are on one side.

Yes there are obviously benefits to an exchange rate devaluation, since our exports become more competitive. But don't you think it is a bit ridiculous to be throwing out insults without also recognising the other side of the coin here?

At the end of the day, exchange rate moves like this hit people's living standards. Anything which is imported or which is priced in an overseas currency is going to become more expensive.

For example a lot of technology suppliers have increased prices - Dell increased their UK list prices by a flat 10%. Apple products have jumped up even while they are reduced in the UK. Software will be more expensive. Basic groceries will be more expensive (as you saw with the Tesco/Unilever dispute). Fuel will be more expensive (as oil is priced in dollars) and is going to go up this month, making it more expensive for people to travel and businesses to move goods around.

There were two occasions in recent history where we had a sudden move in exchange rates similar to what we had after the Brexit vote (although the exchange rate movement after the Brexit vote was greater).

The first occasion was the devaluation in 1967, which brought down Harold Wilson's government and contributed to inflation reaching 24% a few years later. The other occasion was Black Wednesday when the UK was forced out the ERM, which led into the 1990s recession.

You can't honestly tell me you aren't just a bit concerned about the above?

cells

CLAPTON wrote: »

and you firm believe that there is no possibility of increasing the production of goods and service per working person.

I expect no less than a detailed 5 pages of maths to show that never, when you take all things into account including the price of houses in Trent, plus discounting the next 1000 years, and noting that all people are your cousins, has there been an increase in productivity except by way of economies of scale.

Productivity increases are already pencilled in to pay for the burden of a larger portion of old age pensions and sickness

If migration slows we will have no choice but to increase the pension age further and/or reduce the real payments to the old and/or reduce the real healthcare services for the old RELATIVE to what they would otherwise be with a better working/retired ratio.

TrickyTree83

steampowered wrote: »

Personally I think the state of political discussion on here is really disappointing. Is it not possible to have an honest discussion which recognises and balances the facts on both side of the debate? Its a bit ridiculous to claim that all the positives are on one side.

Yes there are obviously benefits to an exchange rate devaluation, since our exports become more competitive. But don't you think it is a bit ridiculous to be throwing out insults without also recognising the other side of the coin here?

At the end of the day, exchange rate moves like this hit people's living standards. Anything which is imported or which is priced in an overseas currency is going to become more expensive.

For example a lot of technology suppliers have increased prices - Dell increased their UK list prices by a flat 10%. Apple products have jumped up even while they are reduced in the UK. Software will be more expensive. Basic groceries will be more expensive (as you saw with the Tesco/Unilever dispute). Fuel will be more expensive (as oil is priced in dollars) and is going to go up this month, making it more expensive for people to travel and businesses to move goods around.

There were two occasions in recent history where we had a sudden move in exchange rates similar to what we had after the Brexit vote (although the exchange rate movement after the Brexit vote was greater).

The first occasion was the devaluation in 1967, which brought down Harold Wilson's government and contributed to inflation reaching 24% a few years later. The other occasion was Black Wednesday when the UK was forced out the ERM, which led into the 1990s recession.

You can't honestly tell me you aren't just a bit concerned about the above?

Kind of difficult when the OP sets the tone by dishing out judgement before any discussion has taken place.

The title assumes Brexit is bad, it assumes those who voted should be ashamed of voting to leave because of the assumption that it's bad. It doesn't really encourage debate and discussion to come to a rational position but asks those who agree with the OP to contribute to slating the leave voters and for the leave voters to try to defend their choice from an assumed position of being wrong. The result of this can be seen for itself.

Conrad

In case you guys missed this pivotal article;


The Guardian here at last recognising that devaluation came in the nick of time, to address our unsustainable trade deficit, written by a Remainer:


SOME HIGHLIGHTS:


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/16/let-the-pound-fall-and-the-economy-rise



There have been suggestions from some in the remain camp that the hollowing out of manufacturing will make it impossible to gain any benefit from the cheaper pound. This, frankly, is nonsense. The current account deficit will shrink as a result of stronger exports from the manufacturing and service sectors, the boost provided to the tourism industry, and because cheaper domestic goods and services will be substituted for more expensive imports. To say that dearer imports will make life more difficult for consumers is to miss the point. That’s how rebalancing works.

At some point, referendum or no referendum, the financial markets were going to say enough is enough and it is delusional to think otherwise.


Had the result in the referendum gone the other way, the deficit would have got bigger.


Running permanent balance of payment deficits amounts to borrowing growth from the future. Sooner or later, it has to be paid back and Brexit means it will be sooner. A weaker pound works by making exports cheaper and imports dearer. The effect, as after all the other devaluations and depreciations of the past 100 years – 1931, 1949, 1967, 1976, 1992 and 2007 – will make the economy less dependent on consumers and more reliant on producers. Lord Mervyn King, a former governor of the Bank of England, thinks the latest fall in sterling is a good thing and he is right.


But put the Brexit vote to one side for a second and ask yourself the following questions: is the economy currently unbalanced? Is growth too dependent on consumer spending and asset price bubbles? Is the productive base of the economy too small? Is it a problem that the UK is running a balance of payments deficit worth 6% of GDP, bigger than ever before in peacetime?


If your answer to these four questions is yes – as it should be – then you need to accept that there is an upside to the falling pound.


A good argument could be made for the rise (Of Sterling) in the late 1990s and early 2000s being the most damaging of the lot. This was the currency movement that hollowed out a large chunk of manufacturing, costing 1 million jobs.


These years saw the widening of the current account deficit and the tendency for consumers to extract spending power from the rising value of their homes.




A traditional British recovery dominated by a rising property market delivered the traditional British result: a whopping balance of payments deficit

steampowered

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Kind of difficult when the OP sets the tone by dishing out judgement before any discussion has taken place.

The title assumes Brexit is bad, it assumes those who voted should be ashamed of voting to leave because of the assumption that it's bad. It doesn't really encourage debate and discussion to come to a rational position but asks those who agree with the OP to contribute to slating the leave voters and for the leave voters to try to defend their choice from an assumed position of being wrong. The result of this can be seen for itself.

I agree. It is disappointing on both sides.

I recently lived abroad for a few years. Experiencing the political debate over there was actually a bit of a shock. People had disagreements but they discussed them in a civil manner, without insulting the other side, without exaggerating and displaying the basic integrity of recognising when the other side had a valid point.

Its such a shame to come back to the UK and observe that so many people seem unable to have a balanced, honest discussion without resorting to comically tribal positions.

I do wonder how the UK got into this mess. People seem to think that political discussion is like supporting a sports team, people seem to just support it matter what and ignore anything which goes against their position.

Running permanent balance of payment deficits amounts to borrowing growth from the future. Sooner or later, it has to be paid back and Brexit means it will be sooner. A weaker pound works by making exports cheaper and imports dearer. The effect, as after all the other devaluations and depreciations of the past 100 years – 1931, 1949, 1967, 1976, 1992 and 2007 – will make the economy less dependent on consumers and more reliant on producers. Lord Mervyn King, a former governor of the Bank of England, thinks the latest fall in sterling is a good thing and he is right.

I agree with most of the article, it makes good points. Certainly the devaluation of sterling is a good thing if you want to see more manufacturing jobs and are prepared for everybody to have lower living standards to achieve that.

The dates chosen are a bit strange though. Those all seem to be dates just before significant recessions - 1931 was before the great depression, rationing in the 50s, IMF in the 70s, the mid-90s recession and the 2008 financial crash.