Brexiters should be 'Ashamed of the harm to come"

Conrad

We'd prefer continued tariff free trade, indeed we will offer this, but if Germany and France wish to make their products more costly with tariffs, so be it, life goes on.


Again an average 4% tariff is lower than typical currency movements that affect pricing for us all (Euro / vs $ for example) and I don't recall trade grinding to a halt. Fuel was 4 times more costly not very long ago, life went on.


We will collect double the tariff value and can use this money to help our economy, not to mention the £10bn saved in contributions and benefits of new global trade orientation in OUR hands for the first time in 40 years


Ardent remainers try and make this far more complex and scary than the reality

CLAPTON

wotsthat wrote: »

Oh don't play the 'quote where I said that' game. You say t's possible for negotiators to negotiate in ways which aren't in the best interests of their citizens - I'd call this bad faith - call it something else if you like - I don't mind.

You only mention the possibility that white Christian Europeans could do this (whatever we call it) and never white Anglo-Saxons. Why's that?

Rusk and Hollande and others have made statements about brexit: I can find references to making the UK pay the price but none about doing the best for their own citizens.

The trade and immigration rules of the EU are openly racist and the trade rules against the best interests of EU citizens.

If we had been discussing Putin, Chine etc, I would indeed have commented on their policies but we are mainly discussing the EU and brexit.

Obviously we digress. We agree that free trade is a good thing. Therefore, trading with the EU on WTO rules would reduce free trade and be a bad thing until such a time as the damage could be repaired by increasing free trade elsewhere.

You have no desire to discuss how long this may take.

I'm surprised you agree that free trade is a good thing : why then do you not condemn the protectionist EU policies towards black africa (and other peoples) and condemn the harm they having been doing for the last 3040 years?

Whether we trade with the EU on free trade terms depends upon whether the EU does what is best for the economic welfare of its people or whether it wants to start a trade war that will damage the people of the EU and us.

I don't have the ear of the EU elite nor indeed do I know who they will be in 2 years time.
Once we know what the EU plans are then, we will know how soon we will be better off.

However, whatever the trade arrangement will be, we have two years to plan a smooth transition to the arrangements once article 50 is declared.

gfplux

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Yes, both fishing and agriculture are nominally devolved to Scotland under successive Scotland Acts. However are in reality under EU control, they default back to Scotland/Holyrood in the event that the UK leaves the EU. Westminster would have to legislate in order to take control back which Sturgeon won't do. She mentioned it in her speech today.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/scottish-independence-back-table-brexit-means-nicola-sturgeon-can-have-her-cake-eat-it-1586246

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/don-t-be-fooled-may-s-big-eu-announcement-is-just-admin

Everyone seems to be well behind on this point re fishing grounds. Is pretty well known for those following Scottish politics in even vague detail, since Gove was up here campaigning to leave on the very basis that Holyrood would get these powers... but I suppose it will become an issue sooner rather than later.

Thank you SHAKE for that analysis. I suspect Westminster might use the repeal of law bill to snatch the fish back!

Moby

cogito wrote: »

And we've been told by the unelected commissioners of the EU that the price of doing business with them is to open our borders and submit to their courts. We should tell them to stuff it.

Why!......I trust them more than I trust the tory 'govmt' in England. At least the commissioners don't have their own agenda and their Court is impartial. Let me ask you.....when was the last time you voted for a Judge in our 'Supreme Court'! They are all appointed.Fox, Davis and Johnson have nothing to offer me and I have nothing to offer them! They are deciding our Brexit policy without being elected by the way!

Malthusian

Perhaps you are being a little pessimistic, Clapton. Remainders everywhere pricked up yesterday at the news that Tesco had taken Marmite off the shelves during a pricing dispute. "Now the ignorant working-class scum will realise how foolish they were and come crawling back to us demanding a second referendum!" they whooped. (As if yeast extract is an exotic ingredient which can only be obtained from organic co-operatives on the terroirs of Alsace.) A day later, and Marmite is back on the shelves, and the nauseating "thanks for all the love" PR treacle from Unilever suggests that free publicity had more to do with the Great Marmite Shortage than Brexit. A week? Nah.

CLAPTON

Moby wrote: »

Why!......I trust them more than I trust the tory 'govmt' in England. At least the commissioners don't have their own agenda and their Court is impartial. Let me ask you.....when was the last time you voted for a Judge in our 'Supreme Court'! They are all appointed.Fox, Davis and Johnson have nothing to offer me and I have nothing to offer them! They are deciding our Brexit policy without being elected by the way!

do you feel that the impartial commissioners of the EU did the right thing for the people of Greece?

wotsthat

CLAPTON wrote: »

I'm surprised you agree that free trade is a good thing : why then do you not condemn the protectionist EU policies towards black africa (and other peoples) and condemn the harm they having been doing for the last 3040 years?

My view is (a) the UK could have done more for free trade by engaging properly within the EU and making better (or any) arguments for it and (b) I don't think an independent UK will be engaging in meaningful free trade with Africa anytime soon.

Condemn the EU for not having set up free trade agreements with Africa or condemn the UK for spending 40 years not engaging. I'm not going to do either as asking people to condemn things here is forumonics and makes no difference to the Africans whatsoever. I could say I regret the lack of African free trade with the EU if you like.

For Africans, like the young waiting to buy a family sized house in the South-East, Brexit will make little, if any, difference. I've taken a dim view on the reasons people voted for Brexit but at least they voted for things which have a better chance of being changed such as reduced immigration or increased sovereignty rather

setmefree2

Moby wrote: »

Why!......I trust them more than I trust the tory 'govmt' in England. At least the commissioners don't have their own agenda and their Court is impartial. Let me ask you.....when was the last time you voted for a Judge in our 'Supreme Court'! They are all appointed.Fox, Davis and Johnson have nothing to offer me and I have nothing to offer them! They are deciding our Brexit policy without being elected by the way!

The Brexit debate and referendum took place in June.

The Labour party didn't turn up.

We are now leaving the EU.

The End.

CLAPTON

wotsthat wrote: »

My view is (a) the UK could have done more for free trade by engaging properly within the EU and making better (or any) arguments for it and (b) I don't think an independent UK will be engaging in meaningful free trade with Africa anytime soon.

You really believe that the EU are so bigotted and economically ignorant they need the UK to educate them.
In a sense maybe I agree with you but I doubt there was a way we could have prevalved

Condemn the EU for not having set up free trade agreements with Africa or condemn the UK for spending 40 years not engaging. I'm not going to do either as asking people to condemn things here is forumonics and makes no difference to the Africans whatsoever. I could say I regret the lack of African free trade with the EU if you like.

For Africans, like the young waiting to buy a family sized house in the South-East, Brexit will make little, if any, difference. I've taken a dim view on the reasons people voted for Brexit but at least they voted for things which have a better chance of being changed such as reduced immigration or increased sovereignty rather

I believe that trade makes an enormous difference to people lives: I see no reason it can't do good to the lives of black people too.

Lower demand for housing in London and the SE can make a significant difference to peoples' lives.

wotsthat

CLAPTON wrote: »

You really believe that the EU are so bigotted and economically ignorant they need the UK to educate them.
In a sense maybe I agree with you but I doubt there was a way we could have prevalved

Such a partisan. We'll never know if the UK would've prevailed - I regret they never tried.

CLAPTON wrote: »

I believe that trade makes an enormous difference to people lives: I see no reason it can't do good to the lives of black people too.

Lower demand for housing in London and the SE can make a significant difference to peoples' lives.

That's nice - we agree.

Watch my lips...I doubt Brexit will impact either free trade with Africa or make houses in the South-East more affordable in any meaningful way.

Can you see that's not the same as saying free trade can't improve people's lives or reduced demand for housing can't reduce prices? Yeah, course you can - forumonics.