Brexit means Brexit

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

CLAPTON wrote: »

No, its you that doesn't understand that the ratio of working to non working has been falling for 100 years:.

And it is indisputable that every time it falls more and more productivity gains are required just to stand still.

The burden on young workers grows every time that ratio of young to old reduces - productivity gains that could be used to improve the lives of the young are instead being diverted to care for the old.

CLAPTON

Its actually very simple

we don't have a labour problem at the moment
but we do have housing problems and we do have massive infrastructure backlog
and we do have an imports problems

there is zero evidence that high population but low productivity countries are better off that lower population but higher productivity countries

we may or may not have a labour problem in about 25 years time

so a rational person will wait and see what will happen and stop immigration now and make the UK a better place to live for its citizens

if in the future we choose to encourage immigration in the circumstances at the time, then so beit.

AnotherJoe

CKhalvashi wrote: »

Noone has also given a fesable answer to what they want the trading relationship with the EU to be. .

Zero tariffs on good and services in each direction. As simple as that. I don't see why that wouldn't be feasible. Why does that require free movement of people? We can sell a widget into Japan without making it a law than anyone there can come and work and live in the UK unfettered. But they can come and live and work here subject to certain restrictions. So why any different to EU?

CKhalvashi wrote: »

I wouldn't trust a self-driving car .

I wouldn't trust one being driven by a 17 year old who thinks he's invulnerable either, but each year we allow tens of thousands of those to come on the roads.

CLAPTON

CKhalvashi wrote: »

I

The risk is that there will be a shortage of workers, which will push up wages demanded, which will make companies less competitive meaning there are no foreign buyers.

if your company identifies a risk you may need extra staff in 25 years time, do you recruit them today just in case?

I won't buy something for £2 because it's made in Britain, when I can get an imported product for £1. At the moment, a majority of what I buy was probably at least part-manufactured in the UK, as there is a competitive supply chain there.

I don't understand your point.

Noone has also given a fesable answer to what they want the trading relationship with the EU to be. Many businesses, including mine, depend on freedom of movement. It's in the governments long-term interests for me to remain in the UK, however if it looks like it's not going to be in mine, then I'm sure that many EU countries will be happy to take the interests instead.

about 100% of the countries of the world do not allow free movement of labour.
100% of countries of the world live with the consequences.

I'm sure you are a very nice person and I wish you well; however I have no wish to trash my homeland because its in your commercial interest.
If EU countries are in different position from the UK, then they must act as they see fit.

kinger101

AnotherJoe wrote: »

Zero tariffs on good and services in each direction. As simple as that. I don't see why that wouldn't be feasible. Why does that require free movement of people? We can sell a widget into Japan without making it a law than anyone there can come and work and live in the UK unfettered. But they can come and live and work here subject to certain restrictions. So why any different to EU?

There a many reasons this won't happen.

(a) politicians don't negotiate simple agreements when a complicated one will do;
(b) the EU are not going to give the UK a more favourable agreement than is available within the EU. Even though we're net importers. Noses will be cut off to spite faces just to make a point.
(c) Canada is close to negotiating CETA which offers tariff-free imports. However, there is a very heavy compliance burden which will be placed on industry. The reason being, the EU doesn't want Canada importing 99 percent complete widgets from China and then selling the selling complete widgets within the EU tariff free. It's too open to abuse.

But CETA won't be an option for the UK. A point needs to made about the consequences of tearing up your club membership.

mwpt

AnotherJoe wrote: »

Zero tariffs on good and services in each direction. As simple as that. I don't see why that wouldn't be feasible.

Genuine question because I really don't know the answer. Is this a common trade agreement outside of a trading union? Which countries have zero tariff agreements now?

Why does that require free movement of people?

Well, a few reasons. It is a good thing in itself to aim toward in a gradual manner. The UK prospered with free movement.

But probably more importantly, the EU will not want to encourage other nations to split from the trading union if they think they can get a better deal outside. So, there is zero chance, no chance at all, that Britain can get a better deal overall outside of the EU.

AnotherJoe

kinger101 wrote: »

There a many reasons this won't happen.

(a) politicians don't negotiate simple agreements when a complicated one will do;
(b) the EU are not going to give the UK a more favourable agreement than is available within the EU. Even though we're net importers. Noses will be cut off to spite faces just to make a point.
(c) Canada is close to negotiating CETA which offers tariff-free imports. However, there is a very heavy compliance burden which will be placed on industry. The reason being, the EU doesn't want Canada importing 99 percent complete widgets from China and then selling the selling complete widgets within the EU tariff free. It's too open to abuse.

But CETA won't be an option for the UK. A point needs to made about the consequences of tearing up your club membership.

Project Fear still running I see.

But even if you are right, such a craven attitude to blackmail Is even more despicable. And dressing it up as pragmatism as no doubt would be your next gambit won't disguise that.

However, it's already apparent that the EU politicians whose jobs are dependent upon workers whose products are bought in this country, are reining in and indeed making moves to get rid of the fascist Eurocrats who act as you imply and to whose demands you pathetically wish to submit.

Attitudes like yours and the Eurocrats to whom you wish to bow, are one of the major reasons people voted to leave.

Eric_the_half_a_bee

kinger101 wrote: »

There a many reasons this won't happen.

(a) politicians don't negotiate simple agreements when a complicated one will do;
(b) the EU are not going to give the UK a more favourable agreement than is available within the EU. Even though we're net importers. Noses will be cut off to spite faces just to make a point.
(c) Canada is close to negotiating CETA which offers tariff-free imports. However, there is a very heavy compliance burden which will be placed on industry. The reason being, the EU doesn't want Canada importing 99 percent complete widgets from China and then selling the selling complete widgets within the EU tariff free. It's too open to abuse.

But CETA won't be an option for the UK. A point needs to made about the consequences of tearing up your club membership.

Why would you want to be part of a club which is composed of such irrational and spiteful members?

nkomp18

Welcome to the real world

Countries don't operate on emotion and on "being nice".

When a bank tells you "Your home may be repossessed if you don't keep up with your payments", that's not blackmail. It would be nice if the banks and the laws where a bit "nicer", but it's not realistic.

Trade agreements and politics between nations or groups of nations is right about the most sterile and strict agreements so that there are no misunderstandings and abuses of either side. These agreements took decades to forge and have eventually led to great prosperity.

Now UK needs to forge new ones from scratch and it will be painfully difficult but what did you expect? Other countries to be "nice" and throw free billions at the UK?

mayonnaise

Eric_the_half_a_bee wrote: »

Why would you want to be part of a club which is composed of such irrational and spiteful members?

I love this argument.
We decide to leave the largest free trade area in the world and when that free trade area then points out that we will lose unfettered access, it's them being irrational and spiteful.