The EU: IN or OUT?

bigadaj

Voyager2002 wrote: »

The wording does not represent the actual situation:

The borders of the EU are policed rigorously: you only need to switch on the news to see evidence of how difficult it is to enter "fortress Europe". And that isn't good enough for you? Would you like to see internal controls, so that a visa is required for a trip from London to Birmingham? Do you think I should be obliged to apply for a work permit if I want to teach English in Barcelona?

The rulers of the EU are the elected governments of the various countries. If you have never heard of the leading politicians of Britain and its neighbours, you need to learn how to read a newspaper.

I'm not agreeing with Freddie but your statements above look ridiculous on their own.

It's not difficult to enter fortress Europe at all, 1 million immigrants into Germany, the camps at Calais and elsewhere along the French coast?

Internal controls within the uk are impractical, Great Britain is an is,and and so has the benefit of being relatively isolated and the ability to have controls in place.

It personally doesn't bother me whether you should or shouldn't apply for a work visa to teach English in Spain, I am absolutely disinterested. I have worked overseas and have applied for a work visa where necessary, based on my preference or my companies need for me to be there and fulfilling a local need for specific skills, whether that country grants permission is up to them.

BananaRepublic

bigadaj wrote: »

Your information is unfortunately out of date.

There was a huge increase in social mobility from the 1960s to the 1990s approximately. Since then things have got much worse, which is obviously concerning, but in review I believe that it was this period that was the anomaly, not the recent return to rigid social and financial inheritance.

I have a similar story to you, first person in the family to go to university on the 1980s, now professionally chartered etc etc

One of the big problems is, like immigrants, people in our situation have drawn up the ladder as soon as we've benefitted from it. Once you have nearly 50% of people getting degrees then employment is not just reliant on the qualification but on family and friends knowing how things are done and the correct approach, contacts etc to which the natural tendency is to exclude those from ther backgrounds.

You can always quote exceptions or those who have beat the system, the fact is they are rare in the last twenty years. Promising kids from a poor background would have a higher chance of being the new Rooney in many cases.

Whilst much of what you say is undoubtedly true, I think the issue is the cost of education, and unfair work practices. Thus working class people are less likely to want to saddle themselves with £60,000 or more of debt to get a university degree. The posh middle class person is less concerned, since mummy and daddy are there in the background anyway. And some jobs provide unpaid internships, which poorer graduates cannot do, whereas those with a rich mommy and daddy can. Similarly posh graduates are more likely to take risks, to take the lower paid jobs which may pay off in the long term. Thus the predominance of public school types in the acting and music professions. Those are low paid professions and only a small number succeed enough to earn a good income. If mummy and daddy ensure that you have a good retirement income, cos they have a big house, you are more likely to follow your heart.

kingrulzuk

Voyager2002 wrote: »

The wording does not represent the actual situation:

The borders of the EU are policed rigorously: you only need to switch on the news to see evidence of how difficult it is to enter "fortress Europe". And that isn't good enough for you? Would you like to see internal controls, so that a visa is required for a trip from London to Birmingham? Do you think I should be obliged to apply for a work permit if I want to teach English in Barcelona?

The rulers of the EU are the elected governments of the various countries. If you have never heard of the leading politicians of Britain and its neighbours, you need to learn how to read a newspaper.

So funny. do you really think u r going to get a job in spain :rotfl:

bigadaj

BananaRepublic wrote: »

Whilst much of what you say is undoubtedly true, I think the issue is the cost of education, and unfair work practices. Thus working class people are less likely to want to saddle themselves with £60,000 or more of debt to get a university degree. The posh middle class person is less concerned, since mummy and daddy are there in the background anyway. And some jobs provide unpaid internships, which poorer graduates cannot do, whereas those with a rich mommy and daddy can. Similarly posh graduates are more likely to take risks, to take the lower paid jobs which may pay off in the long term. Thus the predominance of public school types in the acting and music professions. Those are low paid professions and only a small number succeed enough to earn a good income. If mummy and daddy ensure that you have a good retirement income, cos they have a big house, you are more likely to follow your heart.

Fair points though I'm sure it's the contacts in acting and music that are just as important as the luxury of trust funds or a guaranteed income.

I'm not sure I'd take those trades or professions as the best examples though, law might be a good example whereby unpaid tutillage has been the norm for decades and back into the history of time.

Dird

Voyager2002 wrote: »

Do you think I should be obliged to apply for a work permit if I want to teach English in Barcelona?

Yes you should and it's no big deal. Just like if you deciding to have a year's holiday in Dubai/China "teaching English" you'd have to apply for a work visa also.

For pure holidays no visa would be required, just like with holidays to Singapore/Dubai etc

1965 - pre-EEC
GDP: 5th biggest in the world
USA GDP: 7 times bigger
Unemployment rate: 1.5%

2015 - free-trade benefits
GDP: still 5th biggest in the world
USA GDP: still 7 times bigger
Unemployment rate: 5.4%

For all the supposed benefits of free-trade I thought we'd catch up to USA a bit, maybe them being only 5-6 times bigger. Instead we're growing in line with them despite them not having to provide the EU contributions/let their residents overrun public services

veryintrigued

Well the bookmakers are narrowing the remain odds today:

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result

BananaRepublic

bigadaj wrote: »

Fair points though I'm sure it's the contacts in acting and music that are just as important as the luxury of trust funds or a guaranteed income.

I'm not sure I'd take those trades or professions as the best examples though, law might be a good example whereby unpaid tutillage has been the norm for decades and back into the history of time.

You could well be right. Either way, social mobility went down under Blair, and under Clegg, and Cameron.

masonic

bigadaj wrote: »

Your information is unfortunately out of date.

There was a huge increase in social mobility from the 1960s to the 1990s approximately. Since then things have got much worse, which is obviously concerning, but in review I believe that it was this period that was the anomaly, not the recent return to rigid social and financial inheritance.

I have a similar story to you, first person in the family to go to university on the 1980s, now professionally chartered etc etc

My own experience, as far as university is concerned, is from the early 2000's, so I wouldn't have said my information is far out of date. Much more recent and the outcome cannot be seen - for example, the outcome of the recent university fee hike and new loans system is yet to be determined. On the metric of applications (perhaps not the best measure), it seems not to have impacted negatively.

As it happens, I was exempt from tuition fees owing to low parental income. such exemptions seem to have been replaced by university-run bursary and outreach schemes. I couldn't comment on their relative effectiveness.

But as BananaRepublic points out, public perception of significant student debt might be a problem. It is not seen as effectively a time-limited 'intermediate' rate of income tax, which perhaps it should be. Martin has commented regularly on this issue and I largely agree with his sentiments.

So perhaps I was one of the exceptions you go on to mention. It didn't appear so to me.

One of the big problems is, like immigrants, people in our situation have drawn up the ladder as soon as we've benefitted from it. Once you have nearly 50% of people getting degrees then employment is not just reliant on the qualification but on family and friends knowing how things are done and the correct approach, contacts etc to which the natural tendency is to exclude those from ther backgrounds.

I'm not sure I agree on this point. I wasted a vote in a general election in part trying to improve the situation with tuition fees for those who came after me (is it any wonder I'm so sceptical this referendum will change anything?!) I also think, rightly or wrongly, that my bias is in favour of those of a similar background, to whom I believe I can better relate, and who generally have better interpersonal skills from having been thrown into a mixing pot with those from far more diverse backgrounds at school. But then, I would never put myself forward as the model of normality.

jimjames

Dird wrote: »

Yes you should and it's no big deal. Just like if you deciding to have a year's holiday in Dubai/China "teaching English" you'd have to apply for a work visa also.

For pure holidays no visa would be required, just like with holidays to Singapore/Dubai etc

1965 - pre-EEC
GDP: 5th biggest in the world
USA GDP: 7 times bigger
Unemployment rate: 1.5%

2015 - free-trade benefits
GDP: still 5th biggest in the world
USA GDP: still 7 times bigger
Unemployment rate: 5.4%

For all the supposed benefits of free-trade I thought we'd catch up to USA a bit, maybe them being only 5-6 times bigger. Instead we're growing in line with them despite them not having to provide the EU contributions/let their residents overrun public services

Was that a deliberate choice of years? How does it look comparing just before we joined EU ?

PenguinJim

And now I'm thinking that, just because it improves my personal status and offers my family a few more choices, maybe we shouldn't be in the EU.

Before I had been assuming that it was a good opportunity for "us", the British, to have more influence over both European and global affairs. But, again, it's not as if we, the posters here, will all get to be a Euro MP for a day, and directly influence policy. Everything will still be going on behind the scenes, and our rights, feelings and values won't really have any more or less effect on Britain - perhaps just a bit less of an effect on the world.

And maybe that's a good thing.

Britain is the country that collaborates with Saudi Arabia, despite their terrible human rights records. The same goes more recently for China - instead of seeking to improve the level of basic human rights of their citizens, we're paying them to "invest" in the UK, with guaranteed profits whether the investment pays off or not.

Our leaders have been war criminals - Tony Blair hasn't been convicted yet, which is astounding :eek: , but we have a track record of invasions of other countries, as well as arming dictators to influence countries more subtly.

Britain is also one of the Enemies of the Internet, a title reserved for those countries making use of abhorrent surveillance or censorship for their citizens who should have the right to basic freedoms online.

And then there's the absolutely inexplicable continued existence of the House of Lords.

It's amusing, looking back, at how I thought it was a good idea for Britain to have more influence over global events - how we could spread our values and improve the world.

It's not non-trivial for me to change my nationality, but I do have enough money and connections that it would certainly be possible in the event of a Brexit. I'm not concerned by tradition, or wearing a badge that proudly states that I was born somewhere through no skill of my own. I'll probably lose a bit of money from my investments (nearly half of my assets are in GBP), but who's to say that wouldn't have happened anyway. The timeline's tricky like that!

So perhaps an 'altruistic' feeling of staying in the EU to make the world a better place is completely the wrong feeling to have. Maybe the world will be a better place with reduced British influence. Maybe the borders should be tighter, both ways.

Segregate this warmongering, oppressive, self-important island, with its night-time mobs of drunken louts; with its xenophobic little-Englanders who demand higher standards for new people living here without requiring those same standards of themselves; with its greedy, corrupt government and peers who hoard the nation's wealth, safely, obviously, without remonstration.

Again, just thinking out loud (so to speak).