The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

It was not a non sequitur, the campaign was run on a basis that THE only way to remain in Europe was to remain in the UK.
Clearly a false statement in hindsight.

You're a liar.

IveSeenTheLight

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You're a liar.

What have I lied about?
It seems the Conservative Leaders are the liars



Like I said before, I trusted Cameron far more and he should have led the country through Brexit.



If you truly believe that remaining in Europe was not a widely discussed topic in the referendum of 2014, then you are clearly deluded or ignorant of the facts

.string.

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

To your bold points


1. Not hidden away at all.
I've heard numerous media coverage, question times, political discussions etc which this was very clearly aired.
Your grasping at straws


Indeed, you are talking BS.

2. Theresa May has sent a strong signal that she will prioritise keeping Britain together over a swift exit from the EU, saying she will not trigger divorce proceedings with Brussels until she has secured a “UK-wide approach” to talks with Europe.

Where is that agreement?
Just another instance of saying one thing, doing another.
Just another instance to reflect how untrustworthy May is.

You talk about democracy, but May is not showing democracy leadership qualities.
Its get in line or get out of my way, not something I think works in the modern world.




3 Nicola Strugeon accepted that and agrees that the timing should be aligned once the Brexit position is resolved.
Your point is therefore moot


4 It was not a non sequitur, the campaign was run on a basis that THE only way to remain in Europe was to remain in the UK.
Clearly a false statement in hindsight.


As above, clearly it was not the truth and as such your statement is false and therefore opens the door for reassessment now the conditions are firmed up.


5 As above, the Scottish government have accepted that and want the timing to align with the Brexit negotiations outcome.





To your first point, I don't think it is vindictive spin.
If anything, I was responding to vindictive spin and left it as a differing view perspective.

As for the cartoons, have you ever watched spitting image?
The cartoons are a modern light hearted poke at politicians, with a smuttering of basis behind it which makes them funny.
If you don't see the funny side, maybe you should try taking off the blinkers

Above post - my numbers added to link to comments below.

On 1.

It was hidden. What percentage of the population do you think reads any manifesto in detail? What percentage might read just the executive summary? What percentage only listen to the words spoken by the party leaders?

It was hidden away in the small print and the electorate conned.

On BS - Nice diversion but of course I was referring to the crazy notion that Scotland could be part of the single market while the rest of the UK was not.

On 2

Mrs May gave a commitment to adopt a UK-wide approach to recite, she did not agree to adopt every wierdo idea thrown at her, she has to balance what is best for the whole of the UK. It was for her to do that, not for the SNP to veto anything that was not their policy. When will you people learn that democracy is not defined as by getting what you want all the time.

Ideally there would have been an agreed position on major issues, but it was hardly possible considering the SNP machinations.

3 and 5

As I wrote, Sturgeon is insisting on having a referendum between, roughly, Oct 2018 and March 2019. But the terms of Brexit will not be known by then, even if substantial progress is made, it will not be clear until after Brexit and the Free Trade issues are also clear. Last minute agreements on major controversial issues at to be expected. At present the EU is even saying that the trade deal will not be fully negotiated until as much as 3 years after Brexit. This is being resisted by the UK, but it is a fluid situation and Sturgeon's insistence on her date range is at best premature but probably driven by the independence agenda rather than giving the Scottish electorate a clear view of the facts.

There was no agreement on the Oct to March time frame.

Cartoon ---. Humour eh, on the back of humorous claims of May being a Dictator and undemocratic ?

IveSeenTheLight

I've added in my responses

.string. wrote: »

Above post - my numbers added to link to comments below.

On 1.

It was hidden. What percentage of the population do you think reads any manifesto in detail? What percentage might read just the executive summary? What percentage only listen to the words spoken by the party leaders?

It was hidden away in the small print and the electorate conned.
How can it be hidden away, when it was openly discussed in numerous TV discussions, talk shows, PMQ's, FMQ's, QT's etc etc etc.

You're clearing trying to make something out of nothing

On BS - Nice diversion but of course I was referring to the crazy notion that Scotland could be part of the single market while the rest of the UK was not.

I think you are trying to divert from the topic we were discussing.
Very clearly TM said that there would be an agreement reached BEFORE triggering article 50.
No agreement has been reached

On 2

Mrs May gave a commitment to adopt a UK-wide approach to recite, she did not agree to adopt every wierdo idea thrown at her, she has to balance what is best for the whole of the UK. It was for her to do that, not for the SNP to veto anything that was not their policy. When will you people learn that democracy is not defined as by getting what you want all the time.

Ideally there would have been an agreed position on major issues, but it was hardly possible considering the SNP machinations.
Theresa May said she would unite the UK by reaching a UK wide agreement. Again, no agreement is in place.


3 and 5

As I wrote, Sturgeon is insisting on having a referendum between, roughly, Oct 2018 and March 2019. But the terms of Brexit will not be known by then, even if substantial progress is made, it will not be clear until after Brexit and the Free Trade issues are also clear. Last minute agreements on major controversial issues at to be expected. At present the EU is even saying that the trade deal will not be fully negotiated until as much as 3 years after Brexit. This is being resisted by the UK, but it is a fluid situation and Sturgeon's insistence on her date range is at best premature but probably driven by the independence agenda rather than giving the Scottish electorate a clear view of the facts.

There was no agreement on the Oct to March time frame.

Actually, immediately after a meeting between Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon, the time line was laid out.
NS is trying to work with TM on an agreed timeline, but TM is moving the goalposts and delaying yet again.

Mrs Sturgeon said: “I have said that I want people in Scotland to have an informed choice when the terms of Brexit are clear.

"She has confirmed to me today that that will be in a period from autumn next year to the spring of 2019.

“That would underline my view that is the right timescale.”

Cartoon ---. Humour eh, on the back of humorous claims of May being a Dictator and undemocratic ?
I didn't make the cartoons, so it seems others see this satirical comedy in how she presents herself.

Finally, just hearing the lunchtime news and its reported that 7 times TM said she would not hold a GE.
She's clearly willing to say one thing and do another.
Get in line or get out.
Do as I say or hit the highway.

For me, she certainly is coming out as one of the worst PM's I can recall and for me, the hope is she does not get the mandate she is trying to manipulate from this GE and she stands down on June 09th

Shakethedisease

WengerIn wrote: »

It's was from a Google Survey. Google Surveys are those questions you get asked in order to access newspaper articles. They use 'inferred demographics' in order to normalise their sample but if the entire sample comes from a single newspaper website then it's hard to see how you could possibly say the sample is representative.

I made it clear in my post that the Google Survey wasn't BPC. And anyway my point was more that the Daily Record were actually running it as a story. A 'good' survey for independence in the Record.. wonders will never cease.

There actually was a properly weighted poll during the last ref which asked voters to choose between independence and a possible Tory govt in 2015. The Yes % jumped up considerably on this premise to over 50%. So while this might only be a survey, the results correlate well with the last and only time that I'm aware of, that this question was put to Scottish voters in a properly weighted poll. ( and also consider that at this point in time Labour were leading in the UK polls ).

https://stv.tv/news/politics/195856-prospect-of-tory-government-would-see-most-scots-back-independence/

The Panelbase poll for The Sunday Times and Real Radio Scotland found 37% of Scots agreed the country should be independent, with 45% opposed.

When it asked voters what they would do if they felt the 2015 UK general election would result in either a majority Conservative government at Westminster or another Tory-Liberal Democrat coalition, 52% said this would make them likely to vote in favour of Scotland leaving the UK.

Worth bearing in mind imo anyway.

Shaka_Zulu

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

then you are clearly deluded or ignorant of the facts

You are clearly deluded or ignorant of the outcome of two votes

We voted to remain part of the UK and we voted to leave Europe.

.string.

ISTL - I see little point in continuing to respond to your continued nonsense; as with many things. the claimed committments by Mrs May are but a construct of Sturgeon. It is sad that the gullible swallow SNP lies to the exclusion of honest debate.

But the bottom line is that of course the Scots can have another referendum if there is clear evidence that they want one, rather than the machinations of the SNP, but the UK Government will first get this Brexit stuff sorted. and will ensure that Scots have all necessary information to make a decision.

That's how it is and if you don't like it - Tough.

IveSeenTheLight

Shaka_Zulu wrote: »

You are clearly deluded or ignorant of the outcome of two votes

We voted to remain part of the UK and we voted to leave Europe.

I'm not ignorant at all, I realise the outcomes.

I accepted the result of 2014, however as a result of the outcome of the 2016 referendum, fundamentally changed the position and arguments put across in the 2014 referendum.

I therefore believe it is therefore relevant to reconsider the question of 2014 as a result of this fundamental change.

62% of Scotland voted to remain in the EU.
All 32 council areas voted to remain in the EU.

If you do not recognise the fundamental change, then certainly it may indicate ignorance on your part.

IveSeenTheLight

.string. wrote: »

ISTL - I see little point in continuing to respond

Fair enough

.string. wrote: »

But the bottom line is that of course the Scots can have another referendum if there is clear evidence that they want one

Thats fine, that's what Scottish parliament have voted for

.string. wrote: »

rather than the machinations of the SNP, but the UK Government will first get this Brexit stuff sorted. and will ensure that Scots have all necessary information to make a decision.

Thats also fine, that's what the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon has called for.
Within the 2 year Article 50 time frame, Theresa May indicated that this would be known between October 2018 and March 2019.

So we can all agree that the referendum can be held for the people in Scotland once the outcomes of Brexit is known.

We just need the PM to acknowledge that now.

.string. wrote: »

That's how it is and if you don't like it - Tough.

There is no toughness, I'm happy to work within the time frame and knowledge of the Brexit negotiations outcome in order to make an informed decision.

If this is all acceptable, why wont the Westminster Parliament agree to progress the democratic decision made in the Holyrood Parliament?

Shaka_Zulu

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

If this is all acceptable, why wont the Westminster Parliament agree to progress the democratic decision made in the Holyrood Parliament?

Because the government are not going to march to the beat of Sturgeon's drum.

I have no doubt that if the country wants a second referendum they will get one in time.

You first hurdle will be to get 50%+ of the popular vote in the GE.

Doubtful, but if they do I will advocate on here perhaps now is the time.