The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

fun4everyone

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The law has never been tested string. Cameron wasn't very keen on doing so at all. Salmond laughed a lot when presented with the idea that the Scottish Parliament couldn't hold a legal referendum in Scotland, asking Scottish voters their opinion..without Westminster's say so.

We'll see how it goes. Sturgeon for now is definitely keener on going down the political route to a second vote. But hold that comfort blanket close anyway.

We will indeed see how it goes should Sturgeon stumble into that particular dead end, but the answer is "slowly". The SNP may have dreams of taking the UK to a European court, claiming suppression of rights etc. but as I've mentioned, a few times all that assumes that May has actually said "Never", rather than not at this time. Besides that, there are arguments that can be deployed against the SNP Referendum which can lead to counter claims of a similar nature, let alone applicability, and all these will take time to play out. Don't put too much faith in EU Law being predominant over National Constitutional law either. When it comes to the crunch it not such a slam dunk; many counties in the EU having stated they are not minded to surrender the soverignty of their own constitutions. In essence, the Supremacy if EU Law exists with Reservations.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

We will indeed see how it goes should Sturgeon stumble into that particular dead end, but the answer is "slowly". The SNP may have dreams of taking the UK to a European court, claiming suppression of rights etc. but as I've mentioned, a few times all that assumes that May has actually said "Never", rather than not at this time. Besides that, there are arguments that can be deployed against the SNP Referendum which can lead to counter claims of a similar nature, let alone applicability, and all these will take time to play out. Don't put too much faith in EU Law being predominant over National Constitutional law either. When it comes to the crunch it not such a slam dunk; many counties in the EU having stated they are not minded to surrender the soverignty of their own constitutions. In essence, the Supremacy if EU Law exists with Reservations.

I'm not putting faith in anything string other than independence historically comes about through many routes. The larger entity saying no at the time of asking is pretty standard. And at least whatever happens the Scottish parliament is playing things by the book

Sturgeon will have to bypass May by some means if she says no. Whether that's through Scottish Law, UK law, EU law, international law, going back to defining the Union itself or by political pressure. Are all unknowns right now.

All I'm pointing out to you is that the route to a referendum you keep insisting is the only one. Isn't.

Shakethedisease

fun4everyone wrote: »

Scots Leavers and Unionist voters desperately congregating around the biggest defence they have.

John Curtice :-


Scottish Labour completely out of play. Not realising that continually advocating in the last two elections, to their own voters, that it was absolutely fine to vote Tory tactically to keep the SNP out.. was the stupidest most idiotic idea ever ( well since BetterTogether ). It's finally killed them off !

SNP v's the Tories, the choices are getting stark. However as long as the SNP win a majority of Scottish seats then this Tory super majority elsewhere in the UK will only work in their favour. Two years down the line with Labour out of the picture should be plenty.

Them apples are fine mrginge ( though not keen on any more Tory MP's up here ). Changes nothing though in terms of referendums or requests. The last time the SNP asked for one they only had 6 MP's at Westminster.

ps that Curtice quote pic came up bigger than it looked ! Apologies ( the pic isn't mine ).

Tromking

Clearly a vote for the Tories in Scotland is now a proxy blocking tactic for indyref2. Spin it how you like Shakey, but Unionists in Scotland were never ad finitum going to conveniently vote for three or four other parties and leave the field free for the SNP.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

Clearly a vote for the Tories in Scotland is now a proxy blocking tactic for indyref2. Spin it how you like Shakey, but Unionists in Scotland were never ad finitum going to conveniently vote for three or four other parties and leave the field free for the SNP.

It's too late for 'proxy blocking' via possibly picking up some more Tory MP's an a GE. The Scottish Parliament has already sent it's request from Holyrood. It's not going to be withdrawn after this Westminster GE. I don't know how I can put it to you any more plainly. The Scottish Parliament will still want another indy ref regardless. Any spin you are speaking of is those thinking or claiming any different. Or talking about 'proxy blocking' ...that ship sailed the minute Holyrood voted the bill through.

No Labour muddying the waters and taking the flak for the Tories anymore either. In a few weeks time there will be a very dominant Tory party south of the border with the SNP still dominant north of it at Holyrood and regarding Westminster MP's.

They'll still be looking for a referendum in 2019.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I'm not putting faith in anything string other than independence historically comes about through many routes. The larger entity saying no at the time of asking is pretty standard. And at least whatever happens the Scottish parliament is playing things by the book

Sturgeon will have to bypass May by some means if she says no. Whether that's through Scottish Law, UK law, EU law, international law, going back to defining the Union itself or by political pressure. Are all unknowns right now.

All I'm pointing out to you is that the route to a referendum you keep insisting is the only one. Isn't.

That does sound like

"It can work, I can't explain why or how but I'm 100% certain it can"

Almost like a parent's favourite "Because I said so".

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It's too late for 'proxy blocking' via possibly picking up some more Tory MP's an a GE. The Scottish Parliament has already sent it's request from Holyrood. It's not going to be withdrawn after this Westminster GE. I don't know how I can put it to you any more plainly. The Scottish Parliament will still want another indy ref regardless. Any spin you are speaking of is those thinking or claiming any different. Or talking about 'proxy blocking' ...that ship sailed the minute Holyrood voted the bill through.

No Labour muddying the waters and taking the flak for the Tories anymore either. In a few weeks time there will be a very dominant Tory party south of the border with the SNP still dominant north of it at Holyrood and regarding Westminster MP's.

They'll still be looking for a referendum in 2019.

They will can kick to 2021. A declining SNP vote share and a non-existent Greens will mean the SNP will be locked out via a coalition probably on an issue by issue basis to keep the divisive liars in opposition. I'm not trying to be partisan when I say the SNP have done and are doing a disservice to the independence cause.

mrginge

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Scots Leavers and Unionist voters desperately congregating around the biggest defence they have.

Scottish Labour completely out of play. Not realising that continually advocating in the last two elections, to their own voters, that it was absolutely fine to vote Tory tactically to keep the SNP out.. was the stupidest most idiotic idea ever ( well since BetterTogether ). It's finally killed them off !

SNP v's the Tories, the choices are getting stark. However as long as the SNP win a majority of Scottish seats then this Tory super majority elsewhere in the UK will only work in their favour. Two years down the line with Labour out of the picture should be plenty.

Them apples are fine mrginge ( though not keen on any more Tory MP's up here ). Changes nothing though in terms of referendums or requests. The last time the SNP asked for one they only had 6 MP's at Westminster.

ps that Curtice quote pic came up bigger than it looked ! Apologies ( the pic isn't mine ).

Yep shakey, don't disagree too much with any of that. Seems fairly consistent with the snp tactic of creating a divided country.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

That does sound like

"It can work, I can't explain why or how but I'm 100% certain it can"

Almost like a parent's favourite "Because I said so".

I don't know what Sturgeon or May's next move is going to be. Neither do you. I've posted up screeds of possible alternatives to a section 30, and we've debated them at length. Do you really want a recap ?

I posted what I posted to avoid going over it all. Again. Nothing to do with not explaining why or how. I've did that already.