The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I wouldn't bet on that at all. If voting in 56 MPs out of 59 isn't enough, a pro indy majority at the Scottish Govt isn't enough, nor a bill passed by the Scottish Govt enough, a 62% vote to remain in the EU enough, nor yet another likely SNP majority at Westminster. None of that is coenough to justify a referendum what's it to be then ?

Well you stated before that no request had been made, so you cannot claim that any request will be denied.

The fact seems to be that Sturgeon is afraid to make such a request, not because it will will be refused but that it will be agreed if it takes place after Brexit, so that the Scots can make an informed judgement and also the non trivial point that a Neverendum would disrupt the Brexit negotiations which affect the fortunes of us all (re-read TT's posts for explanations of the latter. Until she makes that formal request she cannot expect a formal reply nor can she legitimately claim a rejection.

It is built into the Union that splitting it up is a matter for mutual consent. A hostile approach as being filled by the SNP is always going to end badly.

Tromking

I' m not sure Sturgeon's 'stop the nasty Tories' is a long term shtich which will bring them the independence they crave.
It obviously goes down well with their recently aquired Old Labour base in the central belt, but as some of us predicted the more you pander to the great unwashed of Glasgow the more you alienate the more conservative 'Tartan Tories' that have voted SNP in more affluent areas.
Additionally If I were a protestant old labour voting 'central belter' and was mixing (politically speaking) with anti-British state, anti-Nato and who were perhaps people from the Irish catholic tradition , I`d be thinking there`s another agenda at work here.
The PM knows this, hence her "precious Union" narrative.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

What on earth are you wittering on about ? If it's in the manifesto and people vote for it what are you going to do ?

When's the last time you looked at the SNP's manifesto in 2007 or 2011?

http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/ass07/man/scot/snp.pdf

http://votesnp.com/campaigns/SNP_Manifesto_2011_lowRes.pdf

Care to tell me if all of those points were implemented?

This thread will continue to go around in circles because the arguments against remaining in the UK are poor. We've been over them many times, particularly the economic and when I ask for detail on the counter claim it never arrives (sss555s). So the counter is just words, words favourable to a particular ideology, a.k.a propaganda.

I used to think there was a political argument for it but I don't anymore. It's just a wave of ideological rubbish, aptly demonstrated by that video of John Swinney Shaka posted yesterday. Not only do people on this thread use circular logic, and dodge the detail when they "refute" or "attack" the Union, but the Scottish government (currently SNP) do it too, on air because they've not thought it through they just react. The whole movement is a mess.

There's a saying on the internet at the moment that's predominantly used by the young, it's "being red pilled", it takes its origins from the Matrix and refers to the use of knowledge to come to a rational conclusion. I believe you've had peak SNP, peak pro-independence. I believe your supporters are being red pilled in droves along with some current and former SNP members and politicians. Since the 2014 independence campaign was fought to come out of the EU - it was otherwise the argument you use to invalidate the 2014 referendum because of the 2016 EU referendum is complete rubbish otherwise - that ship has now done an about turn and is now fighting to stay in the EU. If the referendum campaign gets underway you're going to find that the 44.7% who previously voted Yes are not going to be backing you as you previously thought, similarly you'll have some people who want to remain in the single market backing you, presuming that the UK deal with the EU isn't sufficient to tempt them back.

Independence is an achievable aim, and could very well be prosperous for Scots. But not the way you, the rest of the indy support and the SNP are going about it. It's ham handed, ill conceived, often contrived, and that's the cold hard truth. The fanaticism is such that you're unwilling to wait until the time is right, which leads me to believe that such flawed thinking leads to flawed judgements. There is no appetite to wait until the economic situation is under control in Scotland, instead the counter to it is an argument someone built on sand that "no one knows what the future holds" with that phrase only having positive connotations for an independent Scotland and only negative connotations for Brexit. The thinking is flawed, so badly, I feel a genuine sorrow for people in Scotland who have to put up with it.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

The usual SNP 'We speak for all Scots' and 'stop repressing me England' whilst in receipt of billions in subsidies narrative from you again.
The majority of Scots are becoming weary with this Shakey.

On what basis do you say that ? Evidence, figures, something ?

Or in other words just your own opinion maybe ?

cogito

Shakethedisease wrote: »

On what basis do you say that ? Evidence, figures, something ?

Or in other words just your own opinion maybe ?

What figures ad evidence have you ever put forward in support of your claims? All we ever see from you are opinions and fantasies.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Yes a winner one way or the other.

Regarding the issue of there being no point in Scottish MPs being at Westminster I would not agree, not all are SNP. With such a large contingent of SNP MPs hell bent on being unpleasant, average value for money is reduced, but one or was it 6 PM Questions ago one of them made a valid point, and they have ably demonstrated the character of the SNP to those that listened for more than 10 seconds. Having a more representative set of Scottish MPs would be a great benefit.

Well Sturgeon has a few days to cobble together a manifesto and we all wait to see what will be in it. Will they have the courage to write down what they really want, rather than hide it in the small print?

The key issue will be their share of the popular vote. Its importance will be directly related to the openess of the SNP regarding their aims and their master plan for Scotland's separated economy.

Nonsense string. The key issue is not their share on the popular vote at all. It's securing over 50% of 59 MP seats. Vote shares are irrelevant, why would they matter ? They don't anywhere else in the UK at election time, so why do you think they do in Scotland ?

Well you stated before that no request had been made, so you cannot claim that any request will be denied.

The formal request has been made. Sturgeon sent the letter asking for a Section 30 the day after May triggered Article 50.

It is built into the Union that splitting it up is a matter for mutual consent. A hostile approach as being filled by the SNP is always going to end badly.

One side always has to initiate and express their wishes to leave any Union. But those wishes in a political union must be expressed via a ballot box. May seems intent on making sure Scots voters never get to the ballot box and express their opinion on their own future. Not good.

I have no idea why you think going to the ballot box itself is a 'hostile act' lol. You're talking of the electorate in Scotland voting by the way, not the SNP.

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

On what basis do you say that ? Evidence, figures, something ?

Or in other words just your own opinion maybe ?

Yes, its my opinion that Scotland thanks to the UK Treasury block grant it receives gets disproportionaely more money than it deserves.
Although its not me you need to disavow of that opinion, its the Scottish people, more of whom perhaps believe me than you or your beloved SNP.
Look past (if you can!) your obvious antipathy toward Westminster, England, and the Tories. Inner peace is yours if you just admit the inconvenient truth that Scots do well out of being in the Union.

Shakethedisease

cogito wrote: »

What figures ad evidence have you ever put forward in support of your claims? All we ever see from you are opinions and fantasies.

The usual SNP 'We speak for all Scots' and 'stop repressing me England'

I asked for evidence of this. On the basis of 56 of 59 MP's and a more MSP's than Labour and the Conservatives put together. They speak for far more Scots than any other party does.

Suck it up buttercups. ;););););):p <--- and I know how much you love these. :cool::cool:

Tromking

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I asked for evidence of this. On the basis of 56 of 59 MP's and a more MSP's than Labour and the Conservatives put together. They speak for far more Scots than any other party does.

Suck it up buttercups. ;););););):p <--- and I know how much you love these. :cool::cool:

The problem of course is that if you had the pre-2015 number of MP's, you'd be using another method to measure the SNP'S mandate wouldn't you?......the polls perhaps?
Do you and the SNP get lessons in being wantonly disingenuous?
I'm not sure that constantly stating that we were very popular on polling day two years ago is very good politics.
Public opinion is a moveable feast Shakey, people change their minds on stuff y'know.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

I' m not sure Sturgeon's 'stop the nasty Tories' is a long term shtich which will bring them the independence they crave.

Yes, yes it will.

Labour voters have always been the key to independence. Before it was them switching from Labour to SNP. Now it's switching from No to Yes for fear of endless Tory govts and a possible economically disasterous Brexit. Once those half a million still left give up on Labour, it's bye bye Scotland.

Nasty Tory stuff works extremely well in Scotland. Labour dined out on it for decades. Even when Thatcher was being voted in time and again in England Scots remained staunchly fearful of voting for 'Nasty Tories' returning Labour MP's regardless. The ( for now ) relatively unionist media play along well with that one too. They love it and it's what they're most comfortable doing.

It obviously goes down well with their recently aquired Old Labour base in the central belt, but as some of us predicted the more you pander to the great unwashed of Glasgow the more you alienate the more conservative 'Tartan Tories' that have voted SNP in more affluent areas.
Additionally If I were a protestant old labour voting 'central belter' and was mixing (politically speaking) with anti-British state, anti-Nato and who were perhaps people from the Irish catholic tradition , I`d be thinking there`s another agenda at work here.
The PM knows this, hence her "precious Union" narrative.

Tory v's SNP areas are very thin on the ground these days. Mainly rural or affluent areas I agree with that, but you're only talking about a few seats. Same for Lib Dems. The SNP will remain dominant for as long as we are still part of the UK.

No one gives two hoots about the protestant/catholic thing anymore apart from deranged idiots from the OO. So again, hardly worth mentioning as a factor.