The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

IveSeenTheLight

mollycat wrote: »

Absolute rubbish.

Had Brexit not occurred, a different "reason" would now be manufactured to agitate for a 2nd referendum.

Interesting perception.
Can you show any indication from Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP of the differing reasons they may use to agitate a second referendum.

I can show she was very clear and upfront that she was campaining to remain and raised the risks should Scotland be forced out against the will of the Scottish people

mollycat wrote: »

This argument doesn't even hold water anyway, any prospective iScotland wouldn't even be able to join the EU anyway, (due to economic reasons).

That may be a seperate point, but I believe the argument is not to join, but to remain in the EU

mollycat wrote: »

Spurious arguments from people who* love their country so much they would plunge future generations into perpetual poverty.

*Sarcasm alert.

That's your perception, but my concern is that our future generations would be better placed run by a government who solely looks after the will of the Scottish people.

I truly believe that post independence we would be worse off in the short term, but far better off in the long term

* No sarcasm

IveSeenTheLight

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

So 42% of those able to vote voted remain.

LOL, I see through your manipulation of the stats.
Please do enlighten us the percentage of those able to vote that voted to leave

kabayiri

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

I do not understand your premise, there are always a proportion of the electorate who do not vote.
...

Nearly a third of Scottish voters did not bother voting.

That's one of the worst turnouts of any region in the UK.

This doesn't sound like the actions of an incredibly EU-centric nation to me.

It was these people and other non-voters who squandered the opportunity to remain in the EU.

How do you explain the high level of apathy towards EU voting compared to that other big referendum you had a couple of years back?

A_Medium_Size_Jock

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

I do not understand your premise, there are always a proportion of the electorate who do not vote.
You could similarly argue that the majority of the UK did not vote the conservatives in.
They say you have been away a while.
So I will decline possible disruption and accept that perhaps you just have not seen this debate in this thread before.
Very briefly:
67% -odd of the electorate voted in the EU referendum here in Scotland.
As opposed to 85%-odd in the indyref.
Which shows that not as many are concerned about the EU as are concerned about independence.
If you want more detail, search previous posts in this thread.


You've said this a few times now, but simply not true.
It passed parliament, which the SNP is a minority government, so there are more than just the SNP who voted this through
Again, parliament does in no way imply a mandate for an electorate.
Do you not remember Cameron trying that?
And how did that turn out?


Not at all, Nicola Sturgeon would not have called for another independence vote had the fundamentals not significantly changed
Extreme naivety there.
She will go on and on and on until they reach their aim of independence, regardless of who or what is in the way.

1. Indy Ref 1 - We were told that to remain in Europe, we had to remain with in the UK - Flawed Yet correct AT THAT TIME perhaps, prior to so many EU problems coming to light.
2. Brexit - Scotland voted to remain, the UK voted to leave - Scotland is being withdrawn from Europe, against the determination of its electorate.
No, against the determination of some of its electorate - who from recent polls still prefer the UK option to the EU.

What is the point of a Scottish government / MSP's if they do not defend the rights of the electorate
They should perhaps first question the electorate in what it is they want. This is clearly not the case so far, with so much of the electorate disagreeing.



Maybe, lets see.
I'm confused though, you said you were pro-independence.
Are you inferring you are not sensible?
Nice (but failed) attempt at derision there.
But no.
I like many sensible Scots I know that now is not the time.
And would like a comprehensive, sensible plan in place before deciding otherwise - especially in light of the farce that became Brexit.

Responses highlighted in red above.

IveSeenTheLight

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

The majority of a parliament does in no way imply a mandate for an electorate.
Do you not remember a man called .............. what was his name, now, ............ ah yes, Cameron trying that?
Remind us if you would; how did that turn out?

Not sure what your referring to.

I don't see what your issue is with the parliament voting for something and then putting such a huge decision and impact to the electorate to determine their position.

IveSeenTheLight

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Responses highlighted in red above.

Yes, been away for a couple of years and I'm now going to trawl through threads and posts to get back up to speed, just giving my thoughts and points of view across, whether you agree or disagree.

Also, no derision intended at the last paragraph.
I was genuinely confused that you stated you were pro-independence but also stated that sensible Scots would ensure to remain in the UK.

The problem I see with politics is that I doubt you will ever see a

comprehensive, sensible plan in place before deciding

.Politicians seem to thrive off negative campaigning and headline blanket statements without divulging the reasoning behind it.
Indeed

Extreme naivety there

mollycat

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

That's your perception, but my concern is that our future generations would be better placed run by a government who solely looks after the will of the Scottish people.

I truly believe that post independence we would be worse off in the short term, but far better off in the long term

* No sarcasm

Eh?

How would that work.

People in Scotland dont 'all want and need the same thing you know.

Just like the rest of the UK there is a wide and diverse range of political views here.

Maybe you are one of these people who think it's the specific piece of earth you stand on that defines your character, beliefs and values?

I have more in common with a 50+ year old, public sector employee, ex-factory working, housing scheme raised, comprehensive educated person in Stoke, Cardiff, Ballymena or London than I ever will have with you or any of the other pro-indy posters on here.

Divisive and dangerous; that's what Scottish nationalism is.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Not sure what your referring to.

I don't see what your issue is with the parliament voting for something and then putting such a huge decision and impact to the electorate to determine their position.

Are you just prevaricating?
Because it really is very simple.
The people are vocalising that they do not want a vote.
Yet parliament persists.
Not very democratic, is it?

With Nicola Sturgeon putting Scottish independence back on the table at a speech earlier this week, the results of the latest Times/YouGov Scottish independence survey now show a headline voting intention of 57% for No and 43% for Yes.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/scottish-independence-voting-intention-no-57-yes-4/

davomcdave

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Surely you accept that the foundations and principles of the vote has significantly changed.

We were told, the only way to remain in Europe is to remain within the UK.
Here we are now leaving Europe, when in the Brexit vote, the majority of Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

Thats why there is a call for another referendum, as the forst one was based on flawed principles



Not at all, If the UK had voted to remain in the EU, there would be no basis for another referendum at this time

You don't get to have a referendum each time something changes.

The Scottish people knew that the Tory party was standing on a platform of a Brexit referendum. The Scottish people knew that there couldn't be an SNP majority in the UK Parliament, The Scottish people knew that the referendum was a "once in a generation or lifetime" event.

You lost. Next generation or lifetime the Scottish people should have a say over whether they remain part of the UK. You don't get a neverendum until you get the result that you crave.

If you want to be independent then don't blow your chance when you had it would be my advice. You tried and you failed.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Yes, been away for a couple of years and I'm now going to trawl through threads and posts to get back up to speed, just giving my thoughts and points of view across, whether you agree or disagree.

Also, no derision intended at the last paragraph.
I was genuinely confused that you stated you were pro-independence but also stated that sensible Scots would ensure to remain in the UK.

The problem I see with politics is that I doubt you will ever see a.Politicians seem to thrive off negative campaigning and headline blanket statements without divulging the reasoning behind it.
Indeed

IMHO the public are more and more frequently expecting at least a comprehensive and budgetary-sound plan.
The EU referendum highlighted the propensity for lies which less and less of us find acceptable.
We want the truth.
So perhaps full honest disclosure is a step too far - but it is not naive to expect a far greater degree of honesty than has been seen so far.
With Brexit OR with independence.