The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

IveSeenTheLight

Thrugelmir wrote: »

No one knows. They may yet be proved right. With tensions again in the Middle East and rise of the Islamic State. There's a fragile state of peace. If you had been around in the Cold War era. You would have seen the Cruise Missiles being rolled out of Greenham Common on their trailers and escorted to their firing locations in the Berkshire Countryside in the dead of night. The only certainty with regards to the future is uncertainty. Hindsight was created by humans to simply to support their own assertions. Real history gets written decades later. When all the facts surface.

Hey Thrugs, long time no debate.
I absolutely love the tangents you go off in to try and defend a position

A_Medium_Size_Jock

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Not at all.
I absolutely despise negative campaigning and promotion of fear of change to try and win the argument.

I would much prefer our politicians to come out with the pro's and cons and for the politicians to debate the pro's and con's in order for the electorate to make a reasoned decision.

far too often, I think the politicians think we are not capable of coming to a reasoned decision, else they are incapable of backing up the arguments they are proposing.

We generally get soundbite headlines with no justification behind it and often the politicians are found out when it fails to occur.

We then see them stepping down / sideways to allow the next mould of politician to continue

Do you not believe that perhaps the dawn of a new era is upon us?

That more and more, the public too despise the negative campaigning you speak of?

And who in Scotland practise this methodology more than anyone else, I wonder?

This is why I (and many others) believe that change is nigh - in Scotland too.
More and more frequently the public are recognising that the policies of the SNP are ineffectual and flawed; the electorate will before long demand a new mould of politician.
From current behaviour that is increasingly unlikely to be SNP.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

I am pro-independence.
Nothing against the other parts of the UK and I'd like a strong relationship moving forward.

I accepted the result in 2014 and was prepared to go along with it, however the result of Brexit has changed that previous acceptance, because the foundation in which the better together campaigned fought on was flawed

If the Brexit remainer were the majority, there would not be a clamour or mandate for a second independence referendum.

I too am pro-independence but find your argument flawed.

Brexit has not in fact changed my stance; the Better Together campaign was perhaps appropriate at the time BUT times change.
Europe in the guise of the EU have since then proven their multiple flaws and inability to reform (much like the SNP) so that many Scots like myself no longer wish to be party to such a one-sided partnership.

There IS no clamour for a second independence referendum.
Only that of the SNP who are increasingly finding themselves speaking for smaller and smaller percentages of the Scottish population.
Look how many are against another indyref for evidence.
Much has been posted earlier in this thread as examples for you.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

The SNP are a minority government at present in Scotland, yet the politicians voted in majority for a 2nd referendum.

the majority voted for it in parliament and now its time to see whether there is a majority or minority for it by the residents of Scotland.

That vote by politicians does not however relate to the current wishes of the electorate, does it?

Who we know from recent polls etc. that many in fact do not want even a vote.

Now it's time to see if the parliament is in touch with the views of their electorate before forcing an unwanted vote.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Surely you accept that the foundations and principles of the vote has significantly changed.

We were told, the only way to remain in Europe is to remain within the UK.
Here we are now leaving Europe, when in the Brexit vote, the majority of Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

Thats why there is a call for another referendum, as the forst one was based on flawed principles



Not at all, If the UK had voted to remain in the EU, there would be no basis for another referendum at this time

Just as the foundations and principals of a past vote have changed so has the subject of that vote.

Europe and the EU is much-changed since that vote and much has happened which may well influence the opinion of the electorate were that vote to be held now.
The majority of Scots who voted did indeed vote to remain but remind us: how many Scots did not vote at all.

Again, the only real call for another referendum is from the SNP.
Not from Scots themselves.


As far as the SNP are concerned it really is a case of independence at any cost, so for them it certainly is "referendum after referendum until YES wins".
Fortunately enough Scots are sensible enough to realise this fact.

IveSeenTheLight

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Do you not believe that perhaps the dawn of a new era is upon us?

That more and more, the public too despise the negative campaigning you speak of?

And who in Scotland practise this methodology more than anyone else, I wonder?

This is why I (and many others) believe that change is nigh - in Scotland too.
More and more frequently the public are recognising that the policies of the SNP are ineffectual and flawed; the electorate will before long demand a new mould of politician.
From current behaviour that is increasingly unlikely to be SNP.

Que sera sera.
What will be will be.

If the electorate believe there are better candidates / parties, then I fully urge them to vote for who they believe in.

IveSeenTheLight

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

I too am pro-independence but find your argument flawed.

Brexit has not in fact changed my stance; the Better Together campaign was perhaps appropriate at the time BUT times change.
Europe in the guise of the EU have since then proven their multiple flaws and inability to reform (much like the SNP) so that many Scots like myself no longer wish to be party to such a one-sided partnership.

There IS no clamour for a second independence referendum.
Only that of the SNP who are increasingly finding themselves speaking for smaller and smaller percentages of the Scottish population.
Look how many are against another indyref for evidence.
Much has been posted earlier in this thread as examples for you.

Maybe.
As I stated earlier, the majority in the parliament voted for it (of which the SNP are a minority government).
It's therefore a mandate to see what the electorate think

davomcdave

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Maybe.
As I stated earlier, the majority in the parliament voted for it (of which the SNP are a minority government).
It's therefore a mandate to see what the electorate think

No it isn't as the Scottish Parliament can't call a referendum on Scottish Independence nor can it pay for one just as the Scottish Parliament can't declare war on anyone or change the constitution.

There was a referendum a couple of years ago and you lost it. Too bad. Brexit changes nothing.

IveSeenTheLight

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

The majority of Scots who voted did indeed vote to remain but remind us: how many Scots did not vote at all.

I do not understand your premise, there are always a proportion of the electorate who do not vote.
You could similarly argue that the majority of the UK did not vote the conservatives in.

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Again, the only real call for another referendum is from the SNP.
Not from Scots themselves.

You've said this a few times now, but simply not true.
It passed parliament, which the SNP is a minority government, so there are more than just the SNP who voted this through

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

As far as the SNP are concerned it really is a case of independence at any cost, so for them it certainly is "referendum after referendum until YES wins".

Not at all, Nicola Sturgeon would not have called for another independence vote had the fundamentals not significantly changed

1. Indy Ref 1 - We were told that to remain in Europe, we had to remain with in the UK - Flawed
2. Brexit - Scotland voted to remain, the UK voted to leave - Scotland is being withdrawn from Europe, against the determination of its electorate.

What is the point of a Scottish government / MSP's if they do not defend the rights of the electorate

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Fortunately enough Scots are sensible enough to realise this fact.

Maybe, lets see.
I'm confused though, you said you were pro-independence.
Are you inferring you are not sensible?

IveSeenTheLight

davomcdave wrote: »

There was a referendum a couple of years ago and you lost it. Too bad.

I believe the majority accepted that decision at the time

davomcdave wrote: »

Brexit changes nothing.

This is where we have a difference of opinion.