The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

1. Indy Ref 1 - We were told that to remain in Europe, we had to remain with in the UK - Flawed

Was absolutely correct to say keeping EU membership required a No vote at the time. Conservative manifesto pledge had an EU referendum in it, was always a possibility that 2015 GE would return a Conservative government and then an EU in/out referendum and a Leave vote.

No one's fault, no lies, the issue is now people like yourself, Nicola Sturgeon and the rest of the SNP using this as an excuse when the reality is quite clearly the opposite. If BetterTogether, Ruth Davidson or any other No campaigner, representative or supporter could tell the future and still told you that a No vote was the way to secure EU membership - only then would what you say be true. But as far as I'm aware no one has the ability to tell the future.

You'll no doubt bang on about the SNP being returned to Holyrood under a manifesto pledge specifically about the change in relationship with the EU. And I'll tell you that was off the back of 55% of the eligible vote in Scotland, not the massive 46% Nicola and Alex keep harping on about, but nearer a mere 25% (I worked out the numbers pages back, feel free to scroll through and find it, I cba to work it out again). So whilst they have the MSP's, it cannot be said that they have the backing of the people. In some countries that turnout doesn't qualify the result, something we should adopt in the UK to stop minority groups from wielding power over the majority.

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

2. Brexit - Scotland voted to remain, the UK voted to leave - Scotland is being withdrawn from Europe, against the determination of its electorate.

It was a UK wide referendum, a vote in Northern Ireland counted as much towards the UK result as a vote in Scotland, Jersey or Gibraltar.

In a GE you don't simply refuse the government elected to Westminster (i.e. the result) because Scotland didn't return the same result.

Of course the pro-independence agitators want to portray both of these events in the way you have to try to 'make the case'. It could be said that the case to be made no longer matters because it's been forced through Holyrood by the SNP (one trick pony) and the Greens who violated their manifesto to support it. Come May 2017 and 2021 you'll find out what the electorate really thinks.

Thrugelmir

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Hey Thrugs, long time no debate.
I absolutely love the tangents you go off in to try and defend a position

Good to see your back. :beer:

Every generation thinks they know different. Experience only comes from being there, seen it, done it, dealing with different cultures etc. With it one is also able to compromise and respect alternative views of the world. Fanaticism has no place. Passed from generation to generation simply bubbles under. The one thing I've learnt is that the bitterness (hatred) of history lingers. Waiting for the eruption.

IveSeenTheLight

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Was absolutely correct to say keeping EU membership required a No vote at the time. Conservative manifesto pledge had an EU referendum in it, was always a possibility that 2015 GE would return a Conservative government and then an EU in/out referendum and a Leave vote.

No one's fault, no lies, the issue is now people like yourself, Nicola Sturgeon and the rest of the SNP using this as an excuse when the reality is quite clearly the opposite. If BetterTogether, Ruth Davidson or any other No campaigner, representative or supporter could tell the future and still told you that a No vote was the way to secure EU membership - only then would what you say be true. But as far as I'm aware no one has the ability to tell the future.

......


......

I find it very interesting that the politicians promoting better together and where they are now.

1. Where is David Cameron?
2. Where is George Osbourne?
3. Where is Alastair Darling?
4. Where is Gordon Brown?
5. Where is Margaret Curran?
6. Where is Jim Murphy?
7. Where is Nigel Farrage?
8. Where is Johann Lamont?
9. Where is Annabel Goldie?

I could go on.
All of the above were activists in convincing the electorate that we were better together, but none have stuck around to see consequences

TrickyTree83

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

I find it very interesting that the politicians promoting better together and where they are now.

1. Where is David Cameron?
2. Where is George Osbourne?
3. Where is Alastair Darling?
4. Where is Gordon Brown?
5. Where is Margaret Curran?
6. Where is Jim Murphy?
7. Where is Nigel Farrage?
8. Where is Johann Lamont?
9. Where is Annabel Goldie?

I could go on.
All of the above were activists in convincing the electorate that we were better together, but none have stuck around to see consequences

Seeming as the above has nothing to do with what I posted I assume you agree with what I said?

IveSeenTheLight

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Seeming as the above has nothing to do with what I posted I assume you agree with what I said?

Never assume anything.
It just makes an a$$ out of u and me

I think you missed my point

Enterprise_1701C

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

2. Brexit - Scotland voted to remain, the UK voted to leave - Scotland is being withdrawn from Europe, against the determination of its electorate.

If the eu is so darned important to Scotland why did they have the second lowest turnout of the whole of the UK in the referendum (the lowest being NI).

Brexit is an excuse, if we had voted to remain then sturgeon would probably demand an independence referendum because you were being forced to stay in the eu.

IveSeenTheLight

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

If the eu is so darned important to Scotland why did they have the second lowest turnout of the whole of the UK in the referendum (the lowest being NI).

Voter turnout fluctuates.
I believe it is everyone's prerogative to get out there and vote on their preferences.

The fact remains, that 62% (every single local authority area) of the vote chose to remain

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Brexit is an excuse, if we had voted to remain then sturgeon would probably demand an independence referendum because you were being forced to stay in the eu.

Not at all, Nicola Sturgeon campaigned vehemently for remain and would not have a mandate for another Independence referendum if the democratic will of the Scottish people aligned with the democratic outcome of the UK.

Its a pity that others also campaigning for remain were not so quick to jump ship.

mollycat

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Surely you accept that the foundations and principles of the vote has significantly changed.

We were told, the only way to remain in Europe is to remain within the UK.
Here we are now leaving Europe, when in the Brexit vote, the majority of Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

Thats why there is a call for another referendum, as the forst one was based on flawed principles

Absolute rubbish.

Had Brexit not occurred, a different "reason" would now be manufactured to agitate for a 2nd referendum.

This argument doesn't even hold water anyway, any prospective iScotland wouldn't even be able to join the EU anyway, (due to economic reasons).

Spurious arguments from people who* love their country so much they would plunge future generations into perpetual poverty.

*Sarcasm alert.

Enterprise_1701C

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Voter turnout fluctuates.
I believe it is everyone's prerogative to get out there and vote on their preferences.

The fact remains, that 62% (every single local authority area) of the vote chose to remain



Not at all, Nicola Sturgeon campaigned vehemently for remain and would not have a mandate for another Independence referendum if the democratic will of the Scottish people aligned with the democratic outcome of the UK.

Its a pity that others also campaigning for remain were not so quick to jump ship.

So 42% of those able to vote voted remain.

84.6% was the turnout for the independent referendum.

If you care about something you get out there and vote for it.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Maybe.
As I stated earlier, the majority in the parliament voted for it (of which the SNP are a minority government).
It's therefore a mandate to see what the electorate think

The majority of a parliament does in no way imply a mandate for an electorate.
Do you not remember a man called .............. what was his name, now, ............ ah yes, Cameron trying that?
Remind us if you would; how did that turn out?