The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

.string.

Buzz words so far from the Debate in the Scottish Parliament
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/21/ruth-davidson-vs-nicola-sturgeon-best-lines-put-downs-scottish/

It is important that pro-Union voices get more coverage in the UK press and on BBC to counter all that BS spilling from the SNP.

Sturgeon is taking a wrecking Ball to Scotland's reputation.

mayonnaise

.string. wrote: »

Oh there are lots of options. One on the SNP side would be to pay attention to whether Scots want a Referendum. Or is that too democratic?

The democratically elected government of Scotland will have a democratic vote later today whether they want a referendum or not. That's democratic enough for me.

kabayiri

mayonnaise wrote: »

The democratically elected government of Scotland will have a democratic vote later today whether they want a referendum or not. That's democratic enough for me.

I'm fine with this too. The funds for any referendum should come out of Scottish resources of course.

Whether May acts on any referendum outcome, or when she chooses to act on the referendum outcome, will clearly depend on the priorities and challenges she faces at the time.

If Brexit requires a majority of the UK government focus, then so be it. It is something which impacts 100% of the UK populace, not just a small percentage.

Tromking

.string. wrote: »

It is important that pro-Union voices get more coverage in the UK press and on BBC to counter all that BS spilling from the SNP.

Sturgeon is taking a wrecking Ball to Scotland's reputation.

I agree, to listen to the UK wide media you`d think Sturgeon`s SNP were representative of all Scottish opinion, they are increasingly not and the last couple of weeks are testament to that. My Brexiteer sensibilities are telling me that the Remoaner UK media types are using Sturgeon`s independence narrative as a proxy to undermine Brexit.Its good to see and hear that the majority of Scots aren't having it.
Despite the bluster at Holyrood yesterday, Sturgeon appeared politically very small in comparison with Ruth Davidson.
IMO, her star is on the wane.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

The only legal referendum on independence will be one which is agreed by the UK.

I'm sure that the SNP Government will be shown slightly more respect than they have shown in Westminster, which need not be much.

Oh there are lots of options. One on the SNP side would be to pay attention to whether Scots want a Referendum. Or is that too democratic?

See the video here, not that Sturgeon's words are worth much.

https://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/the-snps-indyref2-mandate.html?m=1

Links to Kevin Hague's blog should be treated in exactly the same way Wings links are. As unashamedly partisan and far less interesting to read ( Wings has about 50x the readership ).

There will be an explicit mandate given to the Scottish Parliament in a few hours time.

This :-

The only legal referendum on independence will be one which is agreed by the UK.

Cannot be factual. Otherwise there is no method by which Scotland can voluntarily leave the UK, a union which it also entered into voluntarily. There is no means by which Westminster can hold on to Scotland should the people of Scotland vote as a majority to leave the UK. Merely trying to stop that vote is an admission in advance that it might be lost.

Which is exactly what is happening in desperation now ( see Hague's blog once again for his panicky mental gymnastics in trying to rewrite the SNP's manifesto and interpret it to suit ). Laughable. He's just as scared as anyone else of a vote, thus will do whatever it takes to make sure it doesn't happen. He's writing blog articles like this not because he's 100% confident that Scots will vote No again, but because he has a sneaking suspicion that they won't.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Buzz words so far from the Debate in the Scottish Parliament
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/21/ruth-davidson-vs-nicola-sturgeon-best-lines-put-downs-scottish/

It is important that pro-Union voices get more coverage in the UK press and on BBC to counter all that BS spilling from the SNP.

I don't think you need have any fears whatsoever on that score about pro-Union voices getting the vast majority of coverage.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Links to Kevin Hague's blog should be treated in exactly the same way Wings links are. As unashamedly partisan and far less interesting to read ( Wings has about 50x the readership ).

And yet one is full of it and never corrects mistakes they make, presumably to continue to carry the agreed nationalist narrative, and the other regularly corrects based on dialogue in the comments.

The two are poles apart and you know it.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

There will be an explicit mandate given to the Scottish Parliament in a few hours time.

This :- Cannot be factual. Otherwise there is no method by which Scotland can voluntarily leave the UK, a union which it also entered into voluntarily. There is no means by which Westminster can hold on to Scotland should the people of Scotland vote as a majority to leave the UK. Merely trying to stop that vote is an admission in advance that it might be lost.

If you'd read the treaty of union section 1 clearly states the legalities which the Scottish parliament agreed to.

That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain

That's what was agreed to. Constitutionally Scotland, the Scottish government, the Scottish parliament have no power at all. They still exist at Westminster's grace.

Only unilateral self determination in accordance with the UN charter, usually as a result of civil war, could Scotland become independent without the grace of Westminster. That is law.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Which is exactly what is happening in desperation now ( see Hague's blog once again for his panicky mental gymnastics in trying to rewrite the SNP's manifesto and interpret it to suit ). Laughable. He's just as scared as anyone else of a vote, thus will do whatever it takes to make sure it doesn't happen. He's writing blog articles like this not because he's 100% confident that Scots will vote No again, but because he has a sneaking suspicion that they won't.

There is no evidence for what you claim about him being scared Yes would win a vote. Kevin has not said anything of the sort. You're guessing, as usual.

Shakethedisease

Tromking wrote: »

I agree, to listen to the UK wide media you`d think Sturgeon`s SNP were representative of all Scottish opinion, they are increasingly not and the last couple of weeks are testament to that. My Brexiteer sensibilities are telling me that the Remoaner UK media types are using Sturgeon`s independence narrative as a proxy to undermine Brexit.Its good to see and hear that the majority of Scots aren't having it.
Despite the bluster at Holyrood yesterday, Sturgeon appeared politically very small in comparison with Ruth Davidson.
IMO, her star is on the wane.

I doubt Sturgeon could be bothered listening to most of it. I certainly didn't. After all five leaders spoke it was basically MSP's just repeating whatever their various party leaders had said. Will be the same today. Labour and Lib Dems wanted a full two days debating, so they got it. Most journo's online watching it were huffing and puffing about being bored as well. The bill will go through today regardless. That's what's really getting opposition backs up and getting them frothing. The fact that they can't stop it after spending months saying they will and punting it about that Sturgeon and Harvie are bluffing. Tough.

Davidson has approx two years of this to go yet. She's fine in front of fawning cameras and media. Less so when it comes to questions that need well thought out, costed, facts figures and serious answers to them. Her cheeky grin will only get her so far when it comes to costing up Brexit for Scots residents, businesses and EU nationals who want some real reassurance. And they're going to come asking for it soon enough so she'd better have them ready ( unlike Tomkins last night ).

UK wide media is only spoon feeding you one side of this. Always has done when it comes to the SNP.

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Links to Kevin Hague's blog should be treated in exactly the same way Wings links are. As unashamedly partisan and far less interesting to read ( Wings has about 50x the readership ).

There will be an explicit mandate given to the Scottish Parliament in a few hours time.

This :- Cannot be factual. Otherwise there is no method by which Scotland can voluntarily leave the UK, a union which it also entered into voluntarily. There is no means by which Westminster can hold on to Scotland should the people of Scotland vote as a majority to leave the UK. Merely trying to stop that vote is an admission in advance that it might be lost.

Which is exactly what is happening in desperation now ( see Hague's blog once again for his panicky mental gymnastics in trying to rewrite the SNP's manifesto and interpret it to suit ). Laughable. He's just as scared as anyone else of a vote, thus will do whatever it takes to make sure it doesn't happen. He's writing blog articles like this not because he's 100% confident that Scots will vote No again, but because he has a sneaking suspicion that they won't.

What is the full text of the Motion before MSPs?

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

And yet one is full of it and never corrects mistakes they make, presumably to continue to carry the agreed nationalist narrative, and the other regularly corrects based on dialogue in the comments.

The two are poles apart and you know it.

I don't really care either way or who makes mistakes. Both blogs are unashamedly partisan at opposite ends of the debate. Links to Hague's blog on here therefore should come with caveats.

If you'd read the treaty of union section 1 clearly states the legalities which the Scottish parliament agreed to.
That's what was agreed to. Constitutionally Scotland, the Scottish government, the Scottish parliament have no power at all. They still exist at Westminster's grace.

Nothing is forever. NI can leave the UK via a border poll should the majority of NI residents wish to. Scotland has the same rights should a majority of Scottish votes wish to leave. Scotland isn't a colony lol. There is no UK without Scotland. And there must be some means to express that will should it arise. Ie a peaceful democratic vote.

Only unilateral self determination in accordance with the UN charter, usually as a result of civil war, could Scotland become independent without the grace of Westminster. That is law.

I'm talking about having to means to express the will to leave via a vote. Should Scotland have a vote and express the will to leave. Then Westminster can deal with it with whatever grace it likes. However, Scotland must have a vote first and foremost.

There is no evidence for what you claim about him being scared Yes would win a vote. Kevin has not said anything of the sort. You're guessing, as usual.

The fact that he feels the need to carp on and break down the SNP's manifesto in order to try and find something there that supports his view that there should not be another referendum. Is evidence that he does not wish one to happen. He does not wish one to happen, even in the face of Brexit and everything else which has changed since 2014.. because he is frightened of the result.