The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

On a more lighthearted note, Nicola Sturgeon appears to be unable to count...

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon



Maybe this explains the failure on economic policy for iScotland?

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Yup, this at times looks so farcical that some SNP acolytes will quite possibly attempt to turn this into a re-run of the Jacobite rising of 1715.
"It's my right" and all that.
Hopefully with an equal amount of success, i.e. nil.


Who says such divisions in Scotland are something new?

Shaka_Zulu

beecher2 wrote: »

My problem, not yours, just a reminder of why this board doesn't really suit my approach to Scottish politics, which needs the heat taken out of it in my opinion.

I will let Tricky debate with your ilk on my behalf, I'm not interested in that anymore to me it is beyond futile.

I'm just going to poke fun at the absurdity that is Nicola and her cult. No substance, no coherence, no literacy to anything that she says in relation to this fight.

A fight we do not need to have a fight that is doing irreparable damage to our country a fight that is causing division not only in Scotland but in the rest of the UK. The latter being a carefully developed plan to to cause ill feeling particularly with England.

beecher2

'your ilk' says it all unfortunately.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

Just think we all have to be a little more respectful of each other's opinions. You won't ever change my mind about Scottish independence as I want to live in a country which decides its own fate. You won't ever understand this, or agree which is fine but I just wish we could all debate a little on what might happen.

A discussion about whether saying 'now isn't the time' is a wise answer to 'would you block a referendum in 2019 after the Great Repeal Act' is something that really interests me, there's no right or wrong, just a political discussion on what might happen. Totally understand that others might not want that kind of discussion, and will always criticise anything I post purely because they know I suppport independence. Just gets very wearing. I think it is because these were the political discussions I had with my family growing up, and the ones I continue to have with friends. Debates where you're constantly trying to change someone's mind and prove someone wrong are fairly disrespectful in my opinion.

I've already said that I think a blanket no would be unfair, but a delay is absolutely fair. Brexit affects far more UK citizens, you had a referendum in 2014 already, I wouldn't begrudge another referendum if there was a will for it and it seems May's approach of suggesting the SNP stand in the next Holyrood elections on a manifesto of having the referendum would demonstrate that if they received a majority. Nothing in that seems unreasonable to me and I don't think that position is being unreasonable to those of the independence persuasion.

As of right now there is no mechanism to determine if the will of the Scottish people demands another referendum is there? Not one with oversight that has official recognition due to the legal oversight. Just the SNP wanting one off the back of the EU referendum which was on a completely different question. And if we're going to get into the nitty gritty of it, the SNP standing in 2016 on the manifesto they did received 46% of a 55% turnout. Hardly a ringing endorsement by the Scottish citizens.

beecher2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I've already said that I think a blanket no would be unfair, but a delay is absolutely fair. Brexit affects far more UK citizens, you had a referendum in 2014 already, I wouldn't begrudge another referendum if there was a will for it and it seems May's approach of suggesting the SNP stand in the next Holyrood elections on a manifesto of having the referendum would demonstrate that if they received a majority. Nothing in that seems unreasonable to me and I don't think that position is being unreasonable to those of the independence persuasion.

As of right now there is no mechanism to determine if the will of the Scottish people demands another referendum is there? Not one with oversight that has official recognition due to the legal oversight. Just the SNP wanting one off the back of the EU referendum which was on a completely different question. And if we're going to get into the nitty gritty of it, the SNP standing in 2016 on the manifesto they did received 46% of a 55% turnout. Hardly a ringing endorsement by the Scottish nation.

I think we have to be wary of using turnout, would we have Brexit if we were counting people who didn't turn up?

There's a majority in the Scottish parliament for independence, and the SNP were very clear in their manifesto what would constitute a change of circumstances. We can't really have a referendum on whether we should have a referendum.

It would be extremely undemocratic to demand an SNP majority in a parliament which uses d'hondt, set up to make the likelihood of holding a majority very very low. Before the 2011 election, many thought it impossible.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

I think we have to be wary of using turnout, would we have Brexit if we were counting people who didn't turn up?

There's a majority in the Scottish parliament for independence, and the SNP were very clear in their manifesto what would constitute a change of circumstances. We can't really have a referendum on whether we should have a referendum.

It would be extremely undemocratic to demand an SNP majority in a parliament which uses d'hondt, set up to make the likelihood of holding a majority very very low. Before the 2011 election, many thought it impossible.

I would agree, but 55% is really poor. Really really poor. In some countries they would have to run the election again as there's rules against such results for good reason. Don't understand why we don't have them here to be fair.

The pro-independence majority in the Scottish parliament is currently based on what is basically just over 50% of those who voted which was just over 50% of the eligible vote, not even the population. If the SNP were to return a majority on a higher turnout on a manifesto pledging a referendum I don't think there can be any reasonable argument against it. So I don't see it as an unreasonable option.

A referendum on whether or not to have a referendum on constitutional change sounds like a good idea to be honest. That would be a mechanism to find out if the Scottish people really do want another one. It sounds folly but other than the Holyrood elections there would be no other way of doing that.

beecher2

To be fair, we were all told it was a shoe in for the SNP and people were advising voters to vote Green to hold the SNP to account. Also voter fatigue must have a part to play - May's local eletion turnout will be shocking I imagine.

Would you need a referendum on whether to hold a referendum on a referendum? How many people wanted a referendum on the EU?

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

To be fair, we were all told it was a shoe in for the SNP and people were advising voters to vote Green to hold the SNP to account. Also voter fatigue must have a part to play - May's local eletion turnout will be shocking I imagine.

Would you need a referendum on whether to hold a referendum on a referendum? How many people wanted a referendum on the EU?

I wouldn't want to speculate on why people voted the way they did in the Holyrood elections in 2016, or why so few turned out and what impact that had on results, to me it's a complete unknown.

I hope that May's local election turnout is not shocking, that it's substantially higher than 55% so people are more able to accurately gauge sentiment in Scotland. It would be the number of votes for and against independence leaning parties that would be telling but I suspect you're correct that the turnout will be low again.

I don't think you'd need to extrapolate any further than a referendum on whether or not to hold a referendum on constitutional change, since one can be held by the Scottish government without Westminster, the other can not, at least not legally.

The EU referendum came about through the Conservatives winning in 2015, there were 17m+ people who voted for Leave so I can only assume that that amount of people wanted a referendum on the EU since Remain was the status quo. The turnout for both was definitely higher than 55%.

antrobus

Shaka_Zulu wrote: »

What you feel in your water is of little or no relevance. As it stands it is not down to the Scottish Parliament.

(1)An Act of the Scottish Parliament is not law so far as any provision of the Act is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament.

(2)A provision is outside that competence so far as any of the following paragraphs apply—

(a)it would form part of the law of a country or territory other than Scotland, or confer or remove functions exercisable otherwise than in or as regards Scotland,

(b)it relates to reserved matters,


Scotland Act 1998
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/section/29

Pretty straightforward I'd have thought.:)