The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

.string.

beecher2 wrote: »

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/03/16/may-just-handed-nicola-sturgeon-the-greatest-gift

Some interesting points here, I think

I'd seen that report but had done no more than glance at it because it seemed just extracts from a slanging match, but looked again after your post to see what I may have missed, especially after your recent remarks about set views Vs discussions and the like. --. Which were fair enough comments I thought although TT has given some reasons for going head to head. I remember him giving extensively reasoned economic argument for them only to be ignored by his protagonist at the time.

But I like the principle of what you were saying.

But I digress - looking at that link I was struck by the comments after it and how nasty they were getting. Do you think that is going to be the ambience surrounding another referendum? In that sort of heat vendettas develop and counties become unpleasant places to live in. We've all seen the way in which SNP MPs approached Westminster - is that the future between England and Scotland and between Scots and Scots? Have the SNP tactics worked?

A_Medium_Size_Jock

.string. wrote: »

We've all seen the way in which SNP MPs approached Westminster - is that the future between England and Scotland and between Scots and Scots? Have the SNP tactics worked?

They are working, yes.
As I have said before, here and elsewhere.

The SNP have purposely been divisive - and introduced their seeds of division throughout Scottish everyday life from education to healthcare.

Fortunately at the moment there remain enough Scots who either can remember a time pre-SNP or have the intelligence to realise how divisive yet immature (as a political entity) the SNP are.
Hence the majority of over-60's being pro-union, as posted recently for example.

That said, I'm sure we all realise that waiting until 2021or later could be a gamble.
If Brexit does not lead to significant harm of UK standards and way of life, or if Britain's prosperity does actually improve post-Brexit then all should go well.
If however Brexit does lead to a reduction in prosperity the result of another indyref may well be in question.

TrickyTree83

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

They are working, yes.
As I have said before, here and elsewhere.

The SNP have purposely been divisive - and introduced their seeds of division throughout Scottish everyday life from education to healthcare.

Fortunately at the moment there remain enough Scots who either can remember a time pre-SNP or have the intelligence to realise how divisive yet immature (as a political entity) the SNP are.
Hence the majority of over-60's being pro-union, as posted recently for example.

That said, I'm sure we all realise that waiting until 2021or later could be a gamble.
If Brexit does not lead to significant harm of UK standards and way of life, or if Britain's prosperity does actually improve post-Brexit then all should go well.
If however Brexit does lead to a reduction in prosperity the result of another indyref may well be in question.

By that time I'd wager it hangs on more than just prosperity of the UK. NATO membership might become more important, non-Eurozone membership might become more important, the EU might change beyond recognition, many things could change such is the state of things on the mainland right now. The Scottish economy could be in a bad way, the SNP might have been removed from power entirely and represent a small minority in Holyrood and the same in Westminster.

TrickyTree83

I've been following the hashtag of #IndyRef2 (and #ScotRef since the indy support don't want to use the twittersphere's chosen tag) and plenty of people are saying that delaying or even blocking the referendum is a trap, and will cause independence support to rise.

I don't see how.

If one has looked at the for's and against's of the argument and come to a conclusion, I fail to see how that conclusion would be altered by not being asked the question formally.

The whole ethos of the independence movement on twitter appears to be militant. Militant thought, militant speech, militant propaganda. None of it comes across as reasoned and rational. It seems to be this collective militancy that has people making such ridiculous statements on twitter, which is unfortunately a place where idiots can be published.

For example, you decide to buy a car you've seen online. You go to the showroom browse around a bit, but because the salesmen doesn't ask you if you want to buy that car suddenly you don't want to buy it? Your decision was swayed to the polar opposite by not being asked what you wanted to do? (Not that a salesmen would never ask you, I understand that)

Where is the logic in this increase in support for not asking the question when the SNP want to ask it, or not asking it at all coming from?

I have my suspicions that these people are just gullible fools and have no idea why they are saying what they are saying and that this is just pie in the sky militant propaganda (again). But if I'm possibly wrong I'd like to know.

And if I'm right, how are there so many people in Scotland taken in by this narrative? That every action that doesn't conform to their wishes is a slight on them by the perceived perpetrator.

elantan

I see the ball has been kicked back to Sturgeon

Anyone want to join me in the popcorn fest ?

ProDave

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I've been following the hashtag of #IndyRef2 (and #ScotRef since the indy support don't want to use the twittersphere's chosen tag) and plenty of people are saying that delaying or even blocking the referendum is a trap, and will cause independence support to rise.

I don't see how.

If one has looked at the for's and against's of the argument and come to a conclusion, I fail to see how that conclusion would be altered by not being asked the question formally.

The whole ethos of the independence movement on twitter appears to be militant. Militant thought, militant speech, militant propaganda. None of it comes across as reasoned and rational. It seems to be this collective militancy that has people making such ridiculous statements on twitter, which is unfortunately a place where idiots can be published.
.

the problem is, there are an awful lot of Scots who hate the English / Tories and Westminster. They will vote to get rid of those EVEN IF it is proved it will be harmful to Scotland to do so. Thankfully that was outweighed last time by people willing to think and make a judgement.

Unfortunately, just being told you can't have indyref 2 will just be used as amunition to show how those nasty English Tory lot at Westminster are once more telling Scotland what we can and can not do.

.string.

I don't think this has come up here, but the other day during her report to the HoC on the EU Council meeting T.May made the committment that no power already devolved to the devovlved administrations would be taken back by Westminster and further that other powers would likely be devolved following their repatriation from the EU.

The SNP, however, in their plan to instantly join the EU will give much of that away agaon, like fisheries for example. Of course they will be able to set Corporation Tax (provided it is the same as the rest of the EU).. They will have their own Foreign Policy (provided it is the same as the EU), Choose any currency they like, as long as it's the EURO, balance Scottish income tax with the common EU direct tax and well .... i think Hamish had a list somewhere. Oh yes - blow raspberries at the English. What a prospectus.

Vote SNP, avoid the challenge of Brexit, stay with the EU Comfort Blanket. Up

Discuss!

(with apologies to Beecher2)

beecher2

.string. wrote: »

I'd seen that report but had done no more than glance at it because it seemed just extracts from a slanging match, but looked again after your post to see what I may have missed, especially after your recent remarks about set views Vs discussions and the like. --. Which were fair enough comments I thought although TT has given some reasons for going head to head. I remember him giving extensively reasoned economic argument for them only to be ignored by his protagonist at the time.

But I like the principle of what you were saying.

But I digress - looking at that link I was struck by the comments after it and how nasty they were getting. Do you think that is going to be the ambience surrounding another referendum? In that sort of heat vendettas develop and counties become unpleasant places to live in. We've all seen the way in which SNP MPs approached Westminster - is that the future between England and Scotland and between Scots and Scots? Have the SNP tactics worked?

I didn't really see any nasty comments when I looked and I don't think I'll venture back to seek them out. I think pretty much every debate conducted via social media is pretty nasty though, which is why it isn't really for me other than signposting to interesting information. Look at some of the abuse Nicola Sturgeon has received, but then look at the Pope's twitter feed - unbelievable what some people tweet to him!

In real life I don't really see any of that, and there is the danger of Scotland being seen as this really angry nation where all we do is scream at each other over independence. The constitution undoubtedly divides people, and will be a major factor in any political debate until it is settled, one way or another. But politics does divide people - some are tories, some are liberals, some are labour, some are snp - it doesn't mean it encourages hatred or nastiness.

Much as people don't believe me, I don't hate anyone who is English. Why on earth would I? I don't hate anyone according to where they live, that'd be insane.

.string.

ProDave wrote: »

the problem is, there are an awful lot of Scots who hate the English / Tories and Westminster. They will vote to get rid of those EVEN IF it is proved it will be harmful to Scotland to do so. Thankfully that was outweighed last time by people willing to think and make a judgement.

Unfortunately, just being told you can't have indyref 2 will just be used as amunition to show how those nasty English Tory lot at Westminster are once more telling Scotland what we can and can not do.

I agree it will be used and it will convince the already convinced but counter-balancing that will surely be the reaction against Sturgeon for endangering the future of those that support the Union by sabotaging the Brexit process in pursue of the SNP obsession.

TrickyTree83

ProDave wrote: »

the problem is, there are an awful lot of Scots who hate the English / Tories and Westminster. They will vote to get rid of those EVEN IF it is proved it will be harmful to Scotland to do so. Thankfully that was outweighed last time by people willing to think and make a judgement.

Unfortunately, just being told you can't have indyref 2 will just be used as amunition to show how those nasty English Tory lot at Westminster are once more telling Scotland what we can and can not do.

But going back to my post, because you've already had a referendum, and you've been through a Brexit referendum there's not much room for manoeuvre to say that there are people out there who haven't yet formed an opinion who will be convinced by anti-Conservative or anti-English feeling. That's already happened. Thus I cannot see how there can be an increase.