The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Moto2

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Not in my opinion.

Go on then
What has ....

But it's the Irish newspapers reporting these things. Not the SNP who have claimed nothing. Officially nothing will come of it. Unofficially imo it looks like Dublin will be quite amenable to helping out Scotland in some form during the Brexit negotiations. They're certainly not being shy in pledging to be 'helpful'

Got to do with...

The SNP are simply trying to claim a Mulligan and using whatever vague and tenuous support and validity they can to get another go.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

And you and Tricky must get to know the difference between a successor and a continuing state. One starts life completely as a new state with no debt, nor previous treaties applicable.

The other one takes debts, assets and previous treaties are applicable. An independent Scotland wouldn't and cannot start life as both of these. It has to be one or the other.

this is simply a SNP fantasy (or lie as others might say).
whether treaties apply depend upon the two parties: it is likely of course, that most foreign government would refuse to simply apply exisiting UK treaties to iscotland, just as it is unlike that scotland would want to accept them. (do you really want to be best friends with Saudi Arabia?)

These foreign treaties have nothing whatsoever to do with how Westminster and Iscotland divide up liabilities and assets.

TrickyTree83

CLAPTON wrote: »

are these figures produced by the same sources that estimate the huge deficit and necessary austerity that an Iscotland would experience ?


do you always believe westminster estimates and assumptions?

Hahaha, only when it suits them Clapton, only when it suits

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

And you and Tricky must get to know the difference between a successor and a continuing state. One starts life completely as a new state with no debt, nor previous treaties applicable.

The other one takes debts, assets and previous treaties are applicable. An independent Scotland wouldn't and cannot start life as both of these. It has to be one or the other.

Just to pull you up on saying I don't understand the difference between the continuator and successor state status.

Clearly I do, but you've misread what I posted.

I said that if you wanted to declare self-determination and become a brand new country, which is what that would entail since the legal entity that is Scotland would still be bound by the act of union. You'd no longer be abiding by that and any other treaties and laws that Scotland as part of the UK had agreed to. So whilst debt free, in a world of pain.

What I was saying in my post was that the self-determination route won't happen will it. The legal wranglings, the court cases, the mess. You need to have the act of union repealed and carry on as Scotland as it's currently recognised under UK law and treaties, inheriting deals, agreements and so forth where possible, however that is going to include debt. But as CLAPTON rightly points out, even as a successor state, you'll inherit your deficit whether you want to or not.

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

And you and Tricky must get to know the difference between a successor and a continuing state. One starts life completely as a new state with no debt, nor previous treaties applicable.

The other one takes debts, assets and previous treaties are applicable. An independent Scotland wouldn't and cannot start life as both of these. It has to be one or the other.

A hypothetical discussion, but a brief research shows things are not so black and white It does seem, however, that the "clean slate" concept makes zero debt, asset share and acquired status (such as membership of the EU for example) mutually incompatible. The current fashionable phrase relating to eating cakes comes to mind.

IMHO of course.

Shakethedisease

Moto2 wrote: »

Go on then
What has ....


Got to do with...

I have absolutely no idea what you're on about. The Irish minister said they'd be 'helpful', it wasn't Sturgeon or the SNP saying the Irish would be helpful. It was Irish ministers and senators themselves.

So --->

The SNP are simply trying to claim a Mulligan and using whatever vague and tenuous support and validity they can to get another go.

This is false.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

this is simply a SNP fantasy (or lie as others might say).
whether treaties apply depend upon the two parties: it is likely of course, that most foreign government would refuse to simply apply exisiting UK treaties to iscotland, just as it is unlike that scotland would want to accept them. (do you really want to be best friends with Saudi Arabia?)

These foreign treaties have nothing whatsoever to do with how Westminster and Iscotland divide up liabilities and assets.

Well then Scotland would start out as a brand new state in the eyes of the world. No debt. Successor state, not continuing. Either or, as I said.

Moto2

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea what you're on about. The Irish minister said they'd be 'helpful', it wasn't Sturgeon or the SNP saying the Irish would be helpful. It was Irish ministers and senators themselves.

So ---> This is false.

Mulligan refers to the SNP totally cocking up their last attempt at getting indy and looking for another go - a mulligan
Absolutely nothing to do with what Irish ministers have or haven't said

It's a golf derived term

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Just to pull you up on saying I don't understand the difference between the continuator and successor state status.

Clearly I do, but you've misread what I posted.

I said that if you wanted to declare self-determination and become a brand new country, which is what that would entail since the legal entity that is Scotland would still be bound by the act of union. You'd no longer be abiding by that and any other treaties and laws that Scotland as part of the UK had agreed to. So whilst debt free, in a world of pain.

You're talking about UDI, not a democratic referendum to indicate Scots wishes of self-determination. A referendum will do the job of self-determination which is why the SNP will always go this route.

What I was saying in my post was that the self-determination route won't happen will it. The legal wranglings, the court cases, the mess. You need to have the act of union repealed and carry on as Scotland as it's currently recognised under UK law and treaties, inheriting deals, agreements and so forth where possible, however that is going to include debt. But as CLAPTON rightly points out, even as a successor state, you'll inherit your deficit whether you want to or not.

No. No assets nor continuation status, no debt. The SNP's position is to negotiate continuator status. But not everyone on the pro-independence side of the debate agrees.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/02/25/the-fiction-of-the-continuing-state/

The Fiction of the Continuing State

..As noted, the only way for Scotland and England to be free of one another is by the dissolution of the union that binds them. That requires that the signatories of that union reemerge as successor states. You either have two successor states, each heir to the assets and liabilities of their former union,
OR
a single continuing state, heir to all of the assets and liabilities of the former union, AND a completely new state, heir to neither the assets nor the liabilities of the former union.

Is an fascinating debate for those with a passing interest. But the mainstream position on this, and certainly as far as the SNP is concerned.. is should there be a Yes vote in future.. for Scotland and England to dissolve the Union and then split everything including debt fairly via negotiations and that Scotland/England will both continue with former UK treaties applicable.

Shakethedisease

Moto2 wrote: »

Mulligan refers to the SNP totally cocking up their last attempt at getting indy and looking for another go - a mulligan
Absolutely nothing to do with what Irish ministers have or haven't said

It's a golf derived term

Oooh right. Thank you ! I can live the rest of my life happy. Never having picked up a golf club ever.

I also really, really love the fact that you think the Brexit vote, is something the SNP sneakily made David Cameron do and made the English vote for it too !.. all just for another go at indy. They truly are miracle workers.

A more apt term I personally would use describing the circumstances leading to another referendum would probably be something along the lines of May...... 'doing a Thatcher' in the way she deals with Scotland. She's doing a fab job so far.